Medjegorje

[popestpiusx]

It's important to keep in mind, folks, that when it comes to Apparitions the bishops are the competent authority, unless Rome withdraws it to themselves. In this case, Rome has simply said that they agree with the bishops of Yugoslavia.

I am not denying that certain good fruits have come about while people are visiting Medjugorje, but these cannot be seen as an authentication of the visions. As I posted earlier, there are many bad fruits associated as well, including with many of the people involved with the visions. They have been extremely disobedient. I find it interesting that many of the same people who jump at the chance to throw the accusation of disobedience or schism at traditionalists will jump through hoops to defend the disobedience of the Franciscan's at Medjugorje.

[jmjtina]

it is IMPORTANT to note that since it has NIETHER been confirmed NOR denied that the Church would take these precautions. Of course the priests and religious are FORBIDDEN, because in essesence, it has neither been confirmed or denied. It is not officially valid or denied until an investigation is done.

Again, It has neither been officially confirmed nor denied by Rome. Everything you are posting sspx, is regards to the priests/bishops about NOT preaching or holding this as "TRUE" or "FORBIDDEN". Nothing to the faithful about it being a hoax,etc. Why? Because the Church has not declared it a sham or true.

I would like to know where your getting your information because I would like to know the source and know more. What I do know about Medjegorie needs to researched in depth. Also, sspx, you put Medjegore with the schism of the SSPX? Let's not beat that dead horse again!

[quote]The result from this in what is precisely said is that official pilgrimages to Medjugorje, understood as a place of authentic Marian apparitions, are not permitted to be organized either on the parish or on the diocesan level, because that would be in contradiction to what the Bishops of former Yugoslavia affirmed in their aforementioned Declaration. [/quote]

all they say is that "Official pilgrimages to Medegorie, aren't permitted to be organized either on parish or diocesan level" NEVER do they say, it is completely false or forbidden, [b]because[/b] it needs to be investigated for it to be declared true or false. And we all know the stories of Fatima and Lourdes, they were NOT believed to be true, and only until AFTER the apparitions stopped they are investigated by Rome.

I think it's awesome that the Church is taking precautions, as it should, but it's up to the faithful at this present time to go and visit Medjegorie. As for many friends AND family who have gone, by thier testimony and experiences, I'm all for going and visiting. I would like direct documentation of what Our Lady has said, with sources because when you start saying, "She said" and it's contradictory to what the Church says, than that is serious. However, I just thought that it should be mentioned that even Medjegorie is mentioned to Fr. Gobbi on July 3, 1987 (To the Priests Our Lady's Beloved Sons). For those who aren't famaliar with Fr. Gobbi, he is also a priest who the Holy Mother has spoken to in regards to her Beloved Sons, the Priests. (The Marian Movement of priests).

Again, [b]we are free to reject or accept [/b]what is happening now in Medjegorie, it is not nessasary to believe it. Our Lady's Message is the same, Repent and Convert! and Pray the Rosary for the World. Something we all should heed. These apparations should bring us closer to Jesus Himself. She is merely guiding us there. But to talk as if it is from Hell itself is something Lourdes, Fatima, Mexico City and other places had to undergo as a form of suffering and penance.

As with everything, pray and discern whether you should go or not rev. What a blessing to have such a choice of where you can go!

Peace and God Bless.

[popestpiusx]

JMJ,
First of all my name is not SSPX, nor am I affiliated with them in any way shape or form. Second, the competent authority in the matter is the local ordinary. Two successive bishops have declared Medjugorje to be a fraud. Lastly, to get back to the SSPX question, I think you missed the point. You state: “Also, sspx, you put Medjegore with the schism of the SSPX? Let's not beat that dead horse again!” I not “putting Medjugorje” with anything. The point of my statement was to show that many of Medjugorje’s most ardent supporters are also some of the most outspoken critics of the SSPX. This is what is called a double standard. The priests of Medjugorje have lost their faculties due to grave disobedience. The following statement was published by Bishop Zanic on March 25, 1986:

I had asked that the doings of Medjugorje be slowly stifled and brought to an end, but everything is continuing as before. This is a disgrace. Consequently, I now demand of you without indulgence the following:1) That the seers hereafter be prevented from appearing in public.2) That there be an end to apparitions in the parish church. That the seers have them in their homes as they did during the summer of 1981
3) That from ten days hence, without any hesitation, the new statue of the Virgin modeled on the apparition and placed before the altar be removed. That the old statue be replaced.
4) That all talk of the apparitions must cease and that no messages be divulged.
5) That devotion developed as a result of the apparitions and in accordance with the messages linked thereto be brought to an end
6) That the sale of souvenirs and publications propagating the apparitions cease. The people may still, however, go to confession, and Mass may be celebrated.
7) I do not allow priests from outside to celebrate mass in the parish or to preach, Friars Jozo Zovko, Tomislav Vlasic and Ljudevit Rupcic in particular.
8) The seers must hand over all they have written…Diaries and writings are public deeds and exercise a great influence on the events of Medjugorje. Consequently, all these documents and this material must come under the control of the Bishop's House, and be made subject to inquiry…I greet you and with you the divine blessing."P. Zanic”
The next bishop, Msgr. Peric, stated in a letter to Secretary General of Famille Chretienne: “On the basis of the serious study of the case on the part of thirty of our sholars…[and] of my five years episcopal experience within the diocese, of the scandalous disobedience which surrounds the phenomenon, of the messages which…are put into the "Madonna's" mouth…of the strange way that the "spiritual directors" of the alleged "visionaries" take them all over the world propagandizing, of the way that the "Madonna" appears at the "fiat" ("let her come") of the "visionaries", my conviction and position is not only "Non constat de supernaturalitate" , but… " Constat de non supernaturalitate" regarding the apparitions and revelations of Medjugorje.”


I have more if you want it.

[jmjtina]

I am sorry I shortened your name wrong! I never thought you were affilated with sspx, but tried to shorten your name.....lol.

[quote]The point of my statement was to show that many of Medjugorje’s most ardent supporters are also some of the most outspoken critics of the SSPX.[/quote]
um, I hadn't realized that. Is this your own observation? where did you get that from?

I think this is important to note:
[quote]This Declaration of the Bishops´ Conference of Yugoslavia represents the official position of the Church on the events of Medjugorje.

The Declaration means:

1. The bishops leave open for further investigations the question of the supernatural character of the phenomenon of Medjugorje: it is neither accepted nor denied.

2. The bishops underline their pastoral care for the faithful who come to Medjugorje for diverse reasons.

3. They want to promote a healthy devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, in accordance with the teaching of the Church. For this purpose, the bishops will issue especially suitable liturgical-pastoral directives.

4. Through their Commissions, they will continue to keep up with and investigate the entire event of Medjugorje.[/quote]

[url="http://www.medjugorje.org/tenyrzadar.htm"]http://www.medjugorje.org/tenyrzadar.htm[/url]

you posted ONE small paragraph, (with others) and took it out of it's context. To me, that was unfair. I am replying to which the neglect of the whole article (as well as where your info is coming from) is very poor. Please provide a link. I found a website that has your previous post [url="http://www.unitypublishing.com/articles.html"]HERE.[/url] I'm not going through all of that now, but from what I gathered from that one website alone, Medjegorie is straight from Hell. And if ALL your information is from there, then I hope anyone who really wants to learn about Medjegorie will research from not just one source. Again, where are you getting your info?

If you don't like Medjegorie, fine. But please post in fairness. (aka: in [i]context[/i])

Peace and God Bless.
+JMJ

[popestpiusx]

I was summing up one of the articles, not taking things out of context. Part of the problem is that this debate has been spread over several threads and I never remember which ones I have posted what links. Let me gather it all to gether so I can just give the links and not take up as much space.

And don't worry about the SSPX thing. I just wanted to avoid any misunderstanding.

[Paladin D]

So......... is this thing legit or not?

[Pope Saint Pius V]

Is everyone missing the obvious point that Our Lady never speaks superflous words? In all of her previous approved apparitions Our Lady was able to speak very shortly and succintly to get across messages of intense importance. In Lourdes, for example, Our Lady appeared for a series of, I believe 13 months, and yet it was only once a month and only for a short time each apparation. The same is true of Fatima and Gaudalupe was even shorter. And yet now we are to believe that the Queen of Heaven can't get across her point in less than 20 years of every day apparitions. Medjugorje is a false apparition, cut and dry. The Church has not just remained neutral but positively discouraged pilgrimages to Medjugorje at least on a diocesan level. The Bishops of Yugoslavia, as PSPX rightly points out, are the contemptent authorities on these matters and have condemned Medjugorje as false. They say that there is nothing supernatural taking place there. I would like to disagree with the bishops, however, there is something taking place there. The Devil is using these false apparitions to draw people into obsession over a clearly false apparition of Our Blessed Lady.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Apr 15 2004, 06:04 PM'] So......... is this thing legit or not? [/quote]
[font="Courier"]Yes, this thing is still legit[/font]

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Apr 16 2004, 03:00 AM'] They say that there is nothing supernatural taking place there. I would like to disagree with the bishops, however, there is something taking place there. The Devil is using these false apparitions to draw people into obsession over a clearly false apparition of Our Blessed Lady. [/quote]
[font="Courier"]Wow… if this is a scheme launched by the devil, it backfired. Medjugorje has lead to conversions.

Remember - “a house divided upon itself…”[/font]

[popestpiusx]

What is your basis for saying the thing is legit? Two subsequent Bishops have condemned it. The Yugoslav Bishops Conference condemned it. Rome said it agrees with the bishops. What is not clear about this? Again, I am amazed by those who support the Medjugorje buisness but do not hesitate to toss all sorts of accusations against traditionalists.

By the way, many schemes launched by the devil fail. God is certainly able to bring infinite good out out of any evil. Is not the Crucifixion a prime example of this?

Edited April 16, 2004 by popestpiusx

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Apr 16 2004, 12:27 PM'] What is your basis for saying the thing is legit? [/quote]
[font="Courier"]I say this is legit because, right now, you and I can go to this place – and continue to be in good standing with the Church.

The Church neither supports nor condemns Medugorje (we all know this) – and no Catholic Church diocese is permitted to support Medugorje until the Church makes an official decision on this matter… all in due time. Medugorje has niether been confirmed nor denied.
Why can’t you get around the fact that some people do want to visit Medugorje, and do so in good standing with the Church?

I have no problem with “traditionalists”, as you call yourself (I do enjoy attending Latin Mass, for example); but I do get a bit agitated at people who seem to get so very disgusted at anything happening within the Church in the last 50 years.
You don’t care for Medugorje, fine – you are not required to;
but if someone else does care for Medugorje, leave them alone... unless the Church actually says otherwise on this matter, you are also not obligated to stand in the way of someone else’s legitimate Catholic devotion.[/font]


[quote]The Yugoslav Bishops Conference condemned it.  Rome said it agrees with the bishops. [/quote]
[font="Courier"]Really?[/font]

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='Apr 16 2004, 02:21 AM'] [font="Courier"]Wow… if this is a scheme launched by the devil, it backfired. Medjugorje has lead to conversions.

Remember - “a house divided upon itself…”[/font] [/quote]
This from Mr. Davies new book on Medjugorje in answer to your suggestion:

Those drawn towards these apparitions tend to be conservative in outlook, the type of Catholic who might have been expected to defend the teaching of the Magisterium. Once such Catholics become "hooked" on an apparition, all their efforts tend to be devoted to defending it and propagating it. They have thus been removed effectively from the battlefield for orthodoxy. There can be no doubt that spurious apparitions are one of Satan's most effective weapons in his war against the Mystical Body. The problem is, of course, to discern authentic from spurious apparitions. The principles for making this distinction are enunciated clearly in Appendix 1.
I recollect very clearly a decade or so ago that I scandalised some very devout friends by maintaining that the alleged apparitions at Palmar de Troya in Spain were inspired by the devil. I was asked how I could make such a claim in view of the piety manifested there—all night vigils, heroic acts of penance, the Rosary, financial sacrifices of staggering proportions. I knew one devout and highly educated English Catholic who sold everything he had and abandoned his profession to go and live there. Later, when Clemente, the self-styled seer, proclaimed himself to be Pope and "excommunicated" everyone who did not recognise him as such, this friend and others withdrew from Palmar in horror and admitted that they had been deceived. But the tragedy is that there are thousands who did not. Their faith had become identified with the authenticity of the Palmar sect. Satan had amputated them from the Mystical Body.
How can one reconcile the devotion that I have mentioned with diabolic inspiration? The answer should be self-evident. If a seer claiming to be inspired by heaven denied the doctrine of the Trinity or advocated free love he would hardly be likely to deceive faithful Catholics. Satan will obviously seek to introduce error and separate the faithful from the Church under a veneer of piety.
There can be little doubt that when the time comes for adherents of Medjugorje to chose between the Church and the illusory apparitions, many will choose the apparitions, as was the case with Palmar de Troya.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='Apr 8 2004, 12:31 PM'] [font="Courier"]Heh
Wow, that's crazy
Who are these Priests? Where can I find more info?[/font] [/quote]
Before providing documentation to prove the falsity of the alleged apparitions I will give just two examples of the degree of credibility which should be given to the self-styled seers of Medjugorje. The first incident is documented in the 1990 statement by Msgr. Zanic which is printed in full under the date May 1990. It concerns a Franciscan priest, Father Ivica Vego, who was dispensed from his vows and expelled from the Franciscan Order by a direct command of Pope John Paul II. Father Vego seduced a nun, Sister Leopolda, and when she became pregnant they both left the religious life and began to live together near Medjugorje where their child was born. They now have two children. But prior to this, Fr. Vego refused to accept his expulsion and continued to celebrate Mass, administer the sacraments, and pass the time with his mistress. Why mention such a distasteful event? The reason is that the seers claimed that Our Lady appeared to them on thirteen occasions stating that Father Vego was innocent, that he was as entitled to celebrate Mass as any other priest, and that the bishop was harsh! Any reader with a true sense of being a Catholic, a sensus catholicus, will need to read no further to realise the full extent of the mendacity of the seers, a mendacity which cannot be excused simply on the grounds that they have been manipulated by their Franciscan mentors. What credibility can be given to those who claim that the Mother of God told them repeatedly that an immoral priest, expelled from his order on the instructions of the Holy Father himself, is innocent, and that the Bishop, who had taken the only course open to him, was the guilty party! And how does a supposedly reputable theologian, such as Father René Laurentin, who has made a great deal of money from books on Medjugorje, react when confronted with such facts. Msgr. Zanic gave us the answer. Laurentin begged the Bishop not to publish details of the incident. Msgr. Zanic told us that this has been Laurentin's consistent position—to hide the truth and defend falsehood. Despite the fact that the truth about Ivica can no longer be denied, his prayer book is still sold in Medjugorje and beyond in hundreds of thousands of copies! Propagandists for Medjugorje still insist that Ivica Vego is the innocent party and the bishop, the guilty one. Their "proof" is that Our Lady is supposed to have told Vicka that this was the case, and where they are concerned any statement by Vicka is a self-evident truth. In a pro-Medjugorje booklet published in 1991,Our Lady is alleged to have spoken as follows to Vicka on 3 January 1982:

Ivica is not guilty. Have him keep the faith even if he is expelled. I do not cease to repeat, "peace, peace, peace," and in the meantime agitation increases. He is not guilty (Our Lady repeated this three times). The Bishop does not keep order. That is why he is responsible. The justice which you have not seen will come back.

[popestpiusx]

Here is the other one:

Like his fellow Franciscan, Father Vego, Father Vlasic had also made a nun pregnant.15 When their child was born at the beginning of 1977, he did not leave the order to marry the woman named Mada (formerly Sister Rufina), but begged her not to expose him as the father, assuring her that it she kept the matter secret she would be like Mary, and God would bless her!16 He advised Mada to lie, and even composed a story for her:

I think it’s best to say that you met someone passing by and he gave you a false name, and he told you he wants to marry you. Later he left and din’tr call and you got pregnant. It’s best to say that you don’t know him, because they won’t bot17her you then and it would be better for the child later.

This was the priest who was virtually the spiritual director of the Medjugorje seers! Mada complied with his wishes initially, but later, feeling abandoned, revealed the whole story to Msgr. Zanic. As he did in the case of Father Vego, Father Laurentin resorted to a cover-up. He evidently felt that the credibility of the seers could be endangered if the immorality of their spiritual director became known, and fabricated a story that a Franciscan named Pehar, who had left the order and gone to live in the U.S.A., was the father of the child. His evident presumption was that no one would be able to find Pehar, but he was mistaken. The former priest, now laicised and married, was located and made it clear that by no possible stretch of the imagination could he have been the father of Mada’s child. He had no hesitation in stating categorically that Laurentin was lying.18


15 The full details of this scandalous event can be found in the book by E. Michael Jones, Medjugorje: The Untold Story (Fidelity press, 206 Marquette Avenue, South Bend, IN 46617, USA).
16 Ibid., p. 85.
17 Ibid.

[popestpiusx]

And the good fruits abound...
How about this one. A co-ed community founded by Fr. Vlasic based on an exposed lie. Read on:

The founding of the Vlasic/Heupel community was a cause of scandal even to some devotees of Medjugorje. Vlasic decided that his critics would be silenced if it could be shown that he had acted in obedience to a command from Our Lady. Maria Pavlovic was a member of the community from February 1988 until July of the same year. It was here that she met her future husband, Paolo Lunetti. In response to a request by Vlasic for an endorsement of his community by Our Lady, Marija duly "revealed" the fact that it had been established at Our Lady’s express command. In July 1988 great consternation was caused among the Medjugorists when Pavlovic swore before the Blessed Sacrament that her previous statement had been false and that the Vlasic/Heupel community was in no way endorsed by Our Lady. Even Father Laurentin would find it hard to cover-up the fact the Pavlovic must have been lying on at least one occasion. The full text of the 11th July 1988 retraction follows:
I feel morally bound to make the following statements before God, our Lady, and the Church of Jesus Christ:
(1) The message of the text An Invitation to the Marian Year and the deposition which bears my signature is that I brought Our Lady's answer to Brother Tomislav Vlasic's question. That answer was supposedly: "This is God's plan." In other words, it follows from these texts that I transmitted to Brother Tomislav Vlasic. Our Lady's confirmation and express approval of this work and of the programme set in motion in Italy with the Medjugorje prayer group.
(2) I now declare that I never asked Our Lady for any confirmation whatsoever of this work begun by Brother Tomislav Vlasic and Agnes Heupel. I never expressly asked Our Lady whether I should take part in this work and I never received from Our Lady any instruction connected with the group, apart from her instruction that each of us should be free to make a choice for his or her own life.

(3) From the texts and depositions which bear my signature it appears that Our Lady suggested that the community and the programme of Brother Tomislav Vlasic and Agnes Heupel are God's way for myself and the others. I now repeat that I never received from Our Lady nor gave Brother Vlasic or anybody else such a statement or instruction from Our Lady.

(4) My first statement in its published form in Croatian and Italian does not correspond to the truth. I personally had no desire to make any written statement. Brother Tomislav Vlasic advised me, stressing the point again and again, that I, as a seer, ought to write a deposition which the world expected.

(5) I must, moreover, declare that the contents of the letter as set out and my having signed it give rise to a number of questions. For the time being, I can give to all possible questions only this one answer, which I give, I repeat, before God, Our Lady, and the Church of Jesus Christ: everything which might be understood as a confirmation and approval of this work of Brother Tomislav Vlasic and Agnes Heupel by Our Lady through myself is absolutely untrue and no less untrue is the idea that I spontaneously conceived the wish to write down that deposition.

(6) I consider myself morally bound to repeat the following statements before God, Our Lady and the Church: After seven years of daily visions, after my most intimate experience of Our Lady's kindness and wisdom, in the light of all that I can remember of Our Lady's advice and of Our Lady's answers to the questions which I personally put to her, I can say publicly that the idea that Heaven's plan and the message of Our Lady to the world at Medjugorje have as a holy consequence and a process desired by Our Lady this Work and the programme begin in Italy by Brother Tomislav Vlasic and Agnes Heupel is unsustainable. It must, however, also be said that the daily apparitions are continuing.
I sign this declaration before the Holy Sacrament, and destine it for all those devoted to the "Work" of Our Lady in Medjugorje.

Marija Pavlovic
11th July 1988

Before leaving the subject of lying, it should be noted that Father Ivo Sivric, OFM (who was born in Medjugorje) reveals that two Franciscans, who were members the Bishop's first investigative commission, had detected "thirteen apparent cases of deliberate and conscious lying" on the part of the alleged visionaries.”19

19 Ivo Sivric, The Hidden Face of Medjugorje ( Editions Psilog, 1989, CP 300, Saint-François-du-Lac, Quebec, Canada, J0C 1M0), p. 14