Sternhauser Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1254518520' post='1976420'] My invocation was very specific. Did I say "government" has no role at all? No, I did not. I support limited government involvement in many areas of life, but always subject to the principle of subsidiarity. [/quote] Which aspect of your life do you want to be regulated by men with guns? ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='02 October 2009 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1254528471' post='1976485'] Which aspect of your life do you want to be regulated by men with guns? ~Sternhauser [/quote] The United States border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1254528591' post='1976486'] The United States border. [/quote] Ooooh. Good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' date='02 October 2009 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1254517853' post='1976412'] God permits evil to exist because eventually he will somehow negate or transform it? Does that not sound a bit contrived? No offense to Augustine. [/quote] No. He said, "God can bring good out of evil. That is why He permits evil to exist." He didn't say that evil is negated or transformed. He also didn't say somehow. It may sounds like I'm picking nits, but these are crucial semantic differences. Catholic teaching does not state that the previous evil is "transformed" into good. If Christ died on the cross, then His resurrection would not transform the crucifixion into a good thing in and of itself. The evil of destroying God is still present in the Crucifixion. The key is that a subsequent good is drawn from the crucifixion. The evil is not transformed or negated. The evil still happened. Judas still handed Him over. The crowds still shouted "crucify him." Peter still denied him. That all happened. All of that evil still happened. It was not literally transformed or negated. In fact, many would speculate that Judas is now being punished for what he did at the end of the Gospels. The evil happened. God doesn't cancel out the evil. Rather, He works through the evil. With all due respect, I think you misrepresented Rexi's post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='02 October 2009 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1254511315' post='1976346'] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/01/lobbyists-millions-obama-healthcare-reform cause that sounds like a non corrupt system i would want to uphold. how is that legal? more importantly, why? 6 lobbyists for every member of congress? wooo, fake democracy! [/quote] Why do you care, hockey puck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestertonian Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='02 October 2009 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1254516594' post='1976399'] because government involvement is always such a bad thing. sorry ma'am, your house is on fire, and we at the fire department would like to help you, but unless you pay our standard fee of 45 thousand dollars we arent gonna help you. or more likely, "we at fire insurance have decided not to cover your costs in putting out this fire, based on a preexisting condition." "pre existing condition?" "yeah its made of wood. smells of elderberries to be you." isnt a core part of christianity that the ends never justify the means? nothing good comes from their greed. they arent stonewalling this thing based on any legitimate principle(cause there arent many) they are doing it because it stands to make them the most money. its really confusing to see america, a place i always understood to be generally rightfully fearful of giant faceless corporations to be shooting themselves in the foot trying to save these ones. isnt this like Stockholm Syndrome at work? [/quote] Nice strawman argument. I don't know of a single person who's in favor of privatizing the fire department, and for that matter, I don't know of a single person who is in favor of preserving the status quo health care system either. What happened to the whole "dissent is patriotic" catchphrase that we all had to hear ad nauseum a couple years back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Actuallly, Rural Metro is in favor of that, and some communities make use of that company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 [quote name='Chestertonian' date='03 October 2009 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1254585552' post='1976706'] What happened to the whole "dissent is patriotic" catchphrase that we all had to hear ad nauseum a couple years back? [/quote] I still haven't stopped hearing it ad nauseum. :idonknow: The only difference is who has been saying it. In the public square, Fox News and MSNBC are the perfect examples: Fox News cheerleaded the federal government ceaselessly while President Bush was in office and he could do no wrong and you would think that he walked on water, now the federal government is portrayed as evil civil rights violators who want to steal your money, your guns, and your very liberty; dissent is not only patriotic to them now it seems, but essential to be a 'true American'. MSNBC during the Bush Administration was ceaselessly preaching that dissent was patriotic, holding the President of the United States up of all that was evil and wrong in the world from the more liberal point of view, and screaming about how the government was going to take your money, your votes and your liberty; but now that President Obama is in office they seem to be of the opinion of the government is a saviour, that President Obama can do no wrong, walk on water, turn water into wine, raise etc. It all comes down to polarization, and has been pointed out by each and every person in this thread, the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='03 October 2009 - 09:11 AM' timestamp='1254582681' post='1976695'] Why do you care, hockey puck? [/quote] hehe, hockey puck again. i dunno, its like watching a neighbor go bankrupt and have to sell all their stuff. dont much care for the drunk parents that are ruining everything, but its sad to see the kids suffer with em. i dunno guess its the canadian mentality of wanting to help. [quote name='Chestertonian' date='03 October 2009 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1254585552' post='1976706'] Nice strawman argument. [b]I don't know of a single person who's in favor of privatizing the fire department[/b], and for that matter, I don't know of a single person who is in favor of preserving the status quo health care system either. What happened to the whole "dissent is patriotic" catchphrase that we all had to hear ad nauseum a couple years back? [/quote] thats exactly my point there. and yes the people trying to defeat the bill want it to stay pretty much the same, except for a few little changes that only serve to make them have more money, such as forcing people to purchase health insurance. follow the money. normally when i think of dissent i dont think of people defending the ones with their hands in your wallet pocket, deciding whether or not to save your sick family based one one thing alone. "if we dont give them treatment, can we get away with it?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 October 2009 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1254597218' post='1976825'] thats exactly my point there. and yes the people trying to defeat the bill want it to stay pretty much the same, except for a few little changes that only serve to make them have more money, such as forcing people to purchase health insurance. follow the money. normally when i think of dissent i dont think of people defending the ones with their hands in your wallet pocket, deciding whether or not to save your sick family based one one thing alone. "if we dont give them treatment, can we get away with it?" [/quote] Your comparison is faulty. The idea that the federal government should intervene and create a once size fits all answer to health care questions would be the equivalent of federalizing all the local fire departments in the country. This approach does not respect the constitutional system of government established by the founding fathers, which intentionally divides up the powers of government into federal, state, and local levels. Edited October 3, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestertonian Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='BG45' date='03 October 2009 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1254594799' post='1976779'] I still haven't stopped hearing it ad nauseum. :idonknow: The only difference is who has been saying it. In the public square, Fox News and MSNBC are the perfect examples: Fox News cheerleaded the federal government ceaselessly while President Bush was in office and he could do no wrong and you would think that he walked on water, now the federal government is portrayed as evil civil rights violators who want to steal your money, your guns, and your very liberty; dissent is not only patriotic to them now it seems, but essential to be a 'true American'. MSNBC during the Bush Administration was ceaselessly preaching that dissent was patriotic, holding the President of the United States up of all that was evil and wrong in the world from the more liberal point of view, and screaming about how the government was going to take your money, your votes and your liberty; but now that President Obama is in office they seem to be of the opinion of the government is a saviour, that President Obama can do no wrong, walk on water, turn water into wine, raise etc. It all comes down to polarization, and has been pointed out by each and every person in this thread, the money. [/quote] Fox News is about the only media outlet that's sympathetic, or for that matter, even half way fair in their coverage of the townhall/tea party protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestertonian Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 October 2009 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1254597218' post='1976825'] hehe, hockey puck again. i dunno, its like watching a neighbor go bankrupt and have to sell all their stuff. dont much care for the drunk parents that are ruining everything, but its sad to see the kids suffer with em. i dunno guess its the canadian mentality of wanting to help. thats exactly my point there. and yes the people trying to defeat the bill want it to stay pretty much the same, except for a few little changes that only serve to make them have more money, such as forcing people to purchase health insurance. follow the money. normally when i think of dissent i dont think of people defending the ones with their hands in your wallet pocket, deciding whether or not to save your sick family based one one thing alone. "if we dont give them treatment, can we get away with it?" [/quote] You're wrong. Virtually everyone recognizes that our current health care system is in need of reform, we just disagree on how to go about fixing it. The protesters aren't there to defend insurance companies, but rather to protest a massive governmental takeover of our health care system. We've seen the way it works in your country and don't want any part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestertonian Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 October 2009 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1254597218' post='1976825'] hehe, hockey puck again. i dunno, its like watching a neighbor go bankrupt and have to sell all their stuff. dont much care for the drunk parents that are ruining everything, but its sad to see the kids suffer with em. [b]i dunno guess its the canadian mentality of wanting to help[/b].[/quote] Did you know that the US is the most charitable country in the world? Edited October 4, 2009 by Chestertonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) EDIT: Nevermind Edited October 4, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 [quote name='XIX' date='03 October 2009 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1254546592' post='1976601'] No. He said, "God can bring good out of evil. That is why He permits evil to exist." He didn't say that evil is negated or transformed. He also didn't say somehow. It may sounds like I'm picking nits, but these are crucial semantic differences. Catholic teaching does not state that the previous evil is "transformed" into good. If Christ died on the cross, then His resurrection would not transform the crucifixion into a good thing in and of itself. The evil of destroying God is still present in the Crucifixion. The key is that a subsequent good is drawn from the crucifixion. The evil is not transformed or negated. The evil still happened. Judas still handed Him over. The crowds still shouted "crucify him." Peter still denied him. That all happened. All of that evil still happened. It was not literally transformed or negated. In fact, many would speculate that Judas is now being punished for what he did at the end of the Gospels. The evil happened. God doesn't cancel out the evil. Rather, He works through the evil. With all due respect, I think you misrepresented Rexi's post. [/quote] What exactly does "bring goodness out of evil" mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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