Questions About Mary

[N/A Gone]

I have a very bright student who has a mixed religion family (was raised Catholic, but mother appears to be a "born again fundi") and the girl has some questions that I am pretty sure are coming from the Mom. I am not an expert on Mary and I was hoping for some advice/response to give her. Her email has 4 basic parts

1st.

[quote]In a book I read about Mary, it said that Pope John Paul went to Portugal and placed a crown on a statue of Mary and thanked her for saving his life. The news reporter said that when he was there the Pope also said that "He owed everything he had and was to Mary" and even gave her credit for sparing his life when he got shot earlier in his life. [/quote]

2nd

[quote]Now, I have no problem honoring Mary because she WAS the mother of Jesus, and she DID give birth to Christ and served the Lord devoutly, but I honestly think that the Roman Catholics have brought Mary's position way far above that of what the Scripture says it should be. They are almost treating her like a god. No where in Scripture does it say that Mary was sinless because she even stated her need for a Savior. (Luke 1:46-49) If she was truly sinless and "perfect" she wouldn't need a God or Savior. The Catholics also teach that she was a virgin her whole life, which was also not true because she gave birth to the sons and daughters of Joseph. (Matthew 13:54-56) [/quote]

3rd
[quote]
Also, Pope Leo the Twelfth said that "Nothing can approach Christ except through Mary." So this basically is saying that Mary is the Co- Redeemer and Co- Mediator with Christ which according to 1 Timothy 2:5 and John 14:6 is not true. These both state that the only way to the Lord is through Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12 states that "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."[/quote]

4th

[quote]In the Cathedral of Quito, there is a cross hanging above the altar with Mary hanging on it and shedding her blood for everyone's sins. Now I believe that this is just wrong, and totally going against Scripture. [/quote]

This is a teenage girl who is confused and needs answers. Any help would be appreciated.

[Veridicus]

Regarding #1, any person could express such sentiments about another human being without it being worship. I could make a similar statement about my own mother for choosing to carry me to term and 'give me life.' (when God is the author of life and thus only He can truly be honored for my life). The issue with #1 is the disparity between protestant and catholic theology on intercession and the nature of the communion of Saints in general rather than Mary specifically. Show her Revelation 6:9-11 to demonstrate that the Saints in heaven are concerned about what is going on on earth down hear and intercede concerning the happenings on earth. Additionally, show her Matthew 18:10 which strongly implies the intercession of angels in heaven on our behalf. Tobit 12:15 (Deuterocanonical so she may be hesitant to acknowledge its message) clearly shows Raphael offering our prayers to God.


Regarding #2, I found this online a while ago. Get your bible out and follow along. It shows that at least some of the 'brothers of Jesus' were in fact cousins by examining the scripture itself. Once this is explained, it is simply a matter of reason and faith to accept the possibility that when the bible says "brothers and sisters" it means cousins.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a27.htm

Regarding #3, Leo 12th taps into Marian Theology to dense to explain in a few sentences I think. There are more fundamental issues you should probably address with this girl first.

Regarding #4...I've never heard of that, but if true is horrifying. Only Christ's blood can pay for our sins. It is a a fact that Christ drew his life and humanity from Mary his mother. He 'became Flesh' in her flesh, nourished by her own flesh and blood like every human relates to its mother in the womb. And while Christ's passion on the cross pierced Mary's heart in a profound metaphysical way, only Christ can hang on the cross for our sins, only Christ is the Lamb that stands as if Slain offering himself in an eternal sacrifice on our behalf. I don't get why such an artistic expression (Mary hanging in Christ's place on the cross) would be hung in a Catholic Church...

Edited October 16, 2009 by Veridicus

[HisChildForever]

I just did a Google search on the Cathedral of Quito and could not for the life of me find this supposed cross. Who told her that?

[Apotheoun]

Here is a online picture of Quito Cathedral in Ecuador:

[img]http://ic2.pbase.com/o4/21/571721/1/59042928.EcuadorCathedral_500.jpg[/img]

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 October 2009 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1255654062' post='1986197']
Here is a online picture of Quito Cathedral in Ecuador:

[img]http://ic2.pbase.com/o4/21/571721/1/59042928.EcuadorCathedral_500.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Looks like Jesus on the cross to me. I can't imagine this girls' protestant mother would peddle in rumor regarding the catholic church...


Beautiful Cathedral, btw.

[N/A Gone]

Thank you, I appreciate it. I will respond to her. I will possibly use this thread in the future. I am hardly an expert on mary.

[Brother Adam]

Quote
In a book I read about Mary, it said that Pope John Paul went to Portugal and placed a crown on a statue of Mary and thanked her for saving his life. The news reporter said that when he was there the Pope also said that "He owed everything he had and was to Mary" and even gave her credit for sparing his life when he got shot earlier in his life.

[b]I fail to see any issues here. Mary is an incredible mom who protected her adopted son.[/b]

2nd

Quote
Now, I have no problem honoring Mary because she WAS the mother of Jesus, and she DID give birth to Christ and served the Lord devoutly, but I honestly think that the Roman Catholics have brought Mary's position way far above that of what the Scripture says it should be. They are almost treating her like a god. No where in Scripture does it say that Mary was sinless because she even stated her need for a Savior. (Luke 1:46-49) If she was truly sinless and "perfect" she wouldn't need a God or Savior. The Catholics also teach that she was a virgin her whole life, which was also not true because she gave birth to the sons and daughters of Joseph. (Matthew 13:54-56)

[quote]What a load of hubababula. This is apologetics 101. You know how to use Google, Jon If you are really having difficulty pick up the Beginner Apologetics series.[/quote]

3rd

Quote
Also, Pope Leo the Twelfth said that "Nothing can approach Christ except through Mary." So this basically is saying that Mary is the Co- Redeemer and Co- Mediator with Christ which according to 1 Timothy 2:5 and John 14:6 is not true. These both state that the only way to the Lord is through Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12 states that "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
[b]
You have a hard core fundamentalist anti-Catholic in your classroom. That or she is quoting someone else who has her hook line and sinker. Mary is "co-redeemer" in every sense and meaning of the word. She is "with the redeemer", and in no way does this doctrine violate Christ's sole mediatorship. Thus is the problem with private interpretation.[/b]

4th

Quote
In the Cathedral of Quito, there is a cross hanging above the altar with Mary hanging on it and shedding her blood for everyone's sins. Now I believe that this is just wrong, and totally going against Scripture.

This was debunked a long time ago. There is a statue of a martyr woman who died on a cross in Mexico. I forget which martyr it is. To equate that martyr with Mary and insist that Catholics have tried to crucify Mary on the cross is a lie the size of Jack Chick.

This is a teenage girl who is confused and needs answers. Any help would be appreciated.

[StColette]

I now remember where I heard that Cathedral of Quito thing. It's from that Catholicism: Crisis of Faith video. Most bogus carp I've ever watched in my life. They interviewed a ton of ex-Catholics including former priests and nuns about the Church and how horrible it is. Anyway, as Bro Adam mentioned it doesn't depict Mary on the cross. There's a cross showing the martyr Saint Liberata on it. She was martyr by crucifixion.

[img]http://www.baiona.org/img/all/photo/baiona.org.088.santa.liberata.jpg[/img]

[Aloysius]

... yep, kindly mention to her that others have died by crucifixion, not all of them men. a woman on a cross doesn't mean Mary... it's an historical event.

"because she [b]WAS[/b] the mother of Jesus"

correction:
"she [b]IS[/b] the mother of Jesus"

ask her what her mother would say if she said "well, you were my mother since you gave birth to me"... a mother is a mother forever. a mother never ceased to be a mother.

[Nihil Obstat]

John Paul II often said that Mary saved his life. I believe he was shot on one of her feast days, and he believes she kept the bullet from instantly killing him.
That crown, if I remember correctly, contained fragments of the bullet that should have killed him.

[MStar]

For #4, [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Exposing_Catholicism.asp"]here's a link[/url] to an article from This Rock Magazine. It says this:

[quote]Mary Crucified?
The original release of Catholicism: Crisis Of Faith showed a statue depicting a woman on a crucifix. The statue was said to be located in the cathedral
of Quito, Ecuador. The narrator explained that Catholics have so confused the role of Mary in redemption, equating her work with her Son’s, that they believe she, too, suffered for their sins.

But the confusion resides not in the Catholic Church but in the minds of McCarthy and the video’s producers. The Most Rev. Antonio Arregui, Auxiliary Bishop of Quito, certified that the statue in question is not in the city’s cathedral but in a monastery in Quito. More important, the woman depicted is not Mary but a young woman martyr, Santa Liberata. She is said to have been the daughter of a Portuguese prince. "Her father wished to marry her to a non-Christian and corrupt prince," explains Bishop Arregui. "When she refused, her father ordered that she be crucified." McCarthy was made aware of this grotesque blunder, but he admits it was still in the video as late as 21 months after its initial release.

The fact that such an outlandish claim—that Mary, too, was crucified—appeared in the original version at all shows McCarthy’s sloppy scholarship. [/quote]

[Archaeology cat]

Mary being sinless does not negate her need for a Saviour. She was not sinless by her own power, but because God made her that way. Yeah, that's the only thing I can add to what others have said.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 October 2009 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1255664825' post='1986275']
John Paul II often said that Mary saved his life. I believe he was shot on one of her feast days, and he believes she kept the bullet from instantly killing him.
That crown, if I remember correctly, contained fragments of the bullet that should have killed him.
[/quote]

If I remember correctly, he brougt the bullet back to Poland and placed it in a revered statue of Mary in Poland.


Now about all those 'he said this and that' stuff. I object and claim that we cannot reasonably expect the popes to speak and give teological details and explanation at everything they said.

If John Paul said "Mary saved me" if asked I'm certain he would have clarified "God saved me through Mary" or something to that effect. Afterall, if someone saves you from drowning, are you constantly going to say God saved me from drowning through my friend Bob?

The point is, even popes will at times talk in a light conversation type thing and we shouldn't take those snippets of speach and turn them into magisterium-type declaration on faith and God. Gimme a break here people, get over it, if you insist on objecting to aspects of the Church, lets discuss doctrine, teachings, or the likes but I resue to agonize on 'small talk' that was never intended to be discussed at an academic level.

[StColette]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' date='16 October 2009 - 07:09 AM' timestamp='1255691354' post='1986379']
Mary being sinless does not negate her need for a Saviour. She was not sinless by her own power, but because God made her that way. Yeah, that's the only thing I can add to what others have said.
[/quote]

I believe it was St. Bonaventure who said that because God acts outside of time it was the merits of Christ on the cross that saved Mary from the very moment of her conception.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Didacus' date='16 October 2009 - 08:32 AM' timestamp='1255699920' post='1986406']
Now about all those 'he said this and that' stuff. I object and claim that we cannot reasonably expect the popes to speak and give teological details and explanation at everything they said.

If John Paul said "Mary saved me" if asked I'm certain he would have clarified "God saved me through Mary" or something to that effect. Afterall, if someone saves you from drowning, are you constantly going to say God saved me from drowning through my friend Bob?

The point is, even popes will at times talk in a light conversation type thing and we shouldn't take those snippets of speach and turn them into magisterium-type declaration on faith and God. Gimme a break here people, get over it, if you insist on objecting to aspects of the Church, lets discuss doctrine, teachings, or the likes but I resue to agonize on 'small talk' that was never intended to be discussed at an academic level.
[/quote]
100% agreed. We can't always be completely technically correct.