Questions About Mary

[StColette]

[quote]Also, Pope Leo the Twelfth said that "Nothing can approach Christ except through Mary." So this basically is saying that Mary is the Co- Redeemer and Co- Mediator with Christ which according to 1 Timothy 2:5 and John 14:6 is not true. These both state that the only way to the Lord is through Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12 states that "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."[/quote]

I really hate the misunderstanding over the word “Co”. We have a habit of associating Co to mean on the same level as or equal to. Co in Latin, which is where these phrases come from mean with, not equal to or on the same level as.

On to the verses that are cited. I love how they through 1 Timothy 2:5 out there all by itself but fail to read the very first four verses in 1 Timothy 2. St. Paul instructs as follows

1. First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone,
2. for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity
3. This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4. who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

To be a mediator is to intercede for someone. St. Paul is telling all Christians to offer up intercession and prayers for one another. We are each called to be mediators, but definitely to a lower degree than Christ. He goes before the Father for us with our prayers and intercessions, thus making him the Mediator between man and God, which
is what 1 Tim 2:5 tells us.

As for John 14:6, I don’t think anyone is arguing that Christ is the way to the Father. Pope Leo full quote is “Thus, just as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so likewise no one goes to Christ except through His Mother.” So he’s not disagreeing with Scripture but actually reiterating it. The Father chose that Christ would come into the world through Mary. That we would receive our salvation through the one that Mary carried in her womb and brought forth into the world. No easy task, especially when you consider that women in that age if unwed and found with child would be stoned to death. It makes practical sense that you should go to the actual human person who knows Christ better than all other people. What human person is closer to Christ then His own mother? I mean really Moses was very close to God and carried the Commandments of the Lord on stone tablets, but Mary carried the Logos, the author of the Ten Commandments, physically in her womb and cared for him his entire life. It makes sense that when you want something done through someone you go to the person closest to them to put in a “good word” for you. When my husband (then fiancé) wanted to propose, he could have asked me directly, but instead he asked my dad for permission and then asked me to marry him. Yeah, he could have come to me directly, but my dad gave him some very helpful hints about marriage and about me.

As for Acts 4:12, the Church completely agrees that salvation comes through Christ alone, and Pope Leo’s quote doesn’t reject that teaching. In fact it reiterates that no one comes to the Father except through the Son.

[Didacus]

[quote name='StColette' date='16 October 2009 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1255708466' post='1986447']
I really hate the misunderstanding over the word “Co”. We have a habit of associating Co to mean on the same level as or equal to. Co in Latin, which is where these phrases come from mean with, not equal to or on the same level as.

On to the verses that are cited. I love how they through 1 Timothy 2:5 out there all by itself but fail to read the very first four verses in 1 Timothy 2. St. Paul instructs as follows

1. First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone,
2. for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity
3. This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4. who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

To be a mediator is to intercede for someone. St. Paul is telling all Christians to offer up intercession and prayers for one another. We are each called to be mediators, but definitely to a lower degree than Christ. He goes before the Father for us with our prayers and intercessions, thus making him the Mediator between man and God, which
is what 1 Tim 2:5 tells us.

As for John 14:6, I don’t think anyone is arguing that Christ is the way to the Father. Pope Leo full quote is “Thus, just as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so likewise no one goes to Christ except through His Mother.” So he’s not disagreeing with Scripture but actually reiterating it. The Father chose that Christ would come into the world through Mary. That we would receive our salvation through the one that Mary carried in her womb and brought forth into the world. No easy task, especially when you consider that women in that age if unwed and found with child would be stoned to death. It makes practical sense that you should go to the actual human person who knows Christ better than all other people. What human person is closer to Christ then His own mother? I mean really Moses was very close to God and carried the Commandments of the Lord on stone tablets, but Mary carried the Logos, the author of the Ten Commandments, physically in her womb and cared for him his entire life. It makes sense that when you want something done through someone you go to the person closest to them to put in a “good word” for you. When my husband (then fiancé) wanted to propose, he could have asked me directly, but instead he asked my dad for permission and then asked me to marry him. Yeah, he could have come to me directly, but my dad gave him some very helpful hints about marriage and about me.

As for Acts 4:12, the Church completely agrees that salvation comes through Christ alone, and Pope Leo’s quote doesn’t reject that teaching. In fact it reiterates that no one comes to the Father except through the Son.
[/quote]

great post St.C...

Would you consider perhaps through the writtings of the popes and saints, that at times it may be met that we can only go to Christ through Mary's 'example', that is to say, Mary, as the first and perfect example of a christian is the one that we must immitate, and that since she is the foremost expert on the subject amongst purely 'human' people, that she is the perfect person to confide in with our difficulties and troubles.

I'm not quite sure how, but I am quite sure that what I've jsut said does play a role somewhere in this discussion or 'controversy' for others.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Didacus' date='16 October 2009 - 08:32 AM' timestamp='1255699920' post='1986406']
If I remember correctly, he brougt the bullet back to Poland and placed it in a revered statue of Mary in Poland.


Now about all those 'he said this and that' stuff. I object and claim that we cannot reasonably expect the popes to speak and give teological details and explanation at everything they said.

If John Paul said "Mary saved me" if asked I'm certain he would have clarified "God saved me through Mary" or something to that effect. Afterall, if someone saves you from drowning, are you constantly going to say God saved me from drowning through my friend Bob?

The point is, even popes will at times talk in a light conversation type thing and we shouldn't take those snippets of speach and turn them into magisterium-type declaration on faith and God. Gimme a break here people, get over it, if you insist on objecting to aspects of the Church, lets discuss doctrine, teachings, or the likes but I resue to agonize on 'small talk' that was never intended to be discussed at an academic level.
[/quote]

Definitely. John Paul II's asking John the Baptist to 'protect Islam' bothers me a heck of a lot more than anything I've ever read of him having said about Mary.

[quote name='StColette' date='16 October 2009 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1255705499' post='1986430']
I believe it was St. Bonaventure who said that because God acts outside of time it was the merits of Christ on the cross that saved Mary from the very moment of her conception.
[/quote]

Exactly. Mary required Jesus Christ's Passion and Death on the Cross as much as any other human to ever live. It is just that Catholics acknowledge the capacity, power, and wisdom of God's extending the merits of Christ 'retroactively' in the creation of his Mother who would be the New Eve and whose womb would be the fertile New Eden for the New Adam.

[quote name='StColette' date='16 October 2009 - 10:54 AM' timestamp='1255708466' post='1986447']
I really hate the misunderstanding over the word “Co”. We have a habit of associating Co to mean on the same level as or equal to. Co in Latin, which is where these phrases come from mean with, not equal to or on the same level as.

On to the verses that are cited. I love how they through 1 Timothy 2:5 out there all by itself but fail to read the very first four verses in 1 Timothy 2. St. Paul instructs as follows

1. First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone,
2. for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity
3. This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4. who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

To be a mediator is to intercede for someone. St. Paul is telling all Christians to offer up intercession and prayers for one another. We are each called to be mediators, but definitely to a lower degree than Christ. He goes before the Father for us with our prayers and intercessions, thus making him the Mediator between man and God, which
is what 1 Tim 2:5 tells us.

As for John 14:6, I don’t think anyone is arguing that Christ is the way to the Father. Pope Leo full quote is “Thus, just as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so likewise no one goes to Christ except through His Mother.” So he’s not disagreeing with Scripture but actually reiterating it. The Father chose that Christ would come into the world through Mary. That we would receive our salvation through the one that Mary carried in her womb and brought forth into the world. No easy task, especially when you consider that women in that age if unwed and found with child would be stoned to death. It makes practical sense that you should go to the actual human person who knows Christ better than all other people. What human person is closer to Christ then His own mother? I mean really Moses was very close to God and carried the Commandments of the Lord on stone tablets, but Mary carried the Logos, the author of the Ten Commandments, physically in her womb and cared for him his entire life. It makes sense that when you want something done through someone you go to the person closest to them to put in a “good word” for you. When my husband (then fiancé) wanted to propose, he could have asked me directly, but instead he asked my dad for permission and then asked me to marry him. Yeah, he could have come to me directly, but my dad gave him some very helpful hints about marriage and about me.

As for Acts 4:12, the Church completely agrees that salvation comes through Christ alone, and Pope Leo’s quote doesn’t reject that teaching. In fact it reiterates that no one comes to the Father except through the Son.
[/quote]

I forgot about that irony. I happened upon that during a frantic defense in a scripture war I had with one of my protestant colleagues during undergraduate. A couple of years later a Scott Hahn book reminded me that a good Catholic does well to start at the beginning of the chapter every time a protestant tries to levy the "One Mediator between God and man" argument against the efficacy of intercessory prayer.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Veridicus

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='16 October 2009 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1255736884' post='1986610']
Definitely. John Paul II's asking John the Baptist to 'protect Islam' bothers me a heck of a lot more than anything I've ever read of him having said about Mary.
[/quote]

What he said about Islam bothers me a lot too.

[mommas_boy]

Here's a common sense proof on "Christ is the only way to Salvation".

First, I do not deny that Christ is the only way to Salvation. However, how are we to get to Christ? Did I not learn how to love Christ first from my earthly parents, my earthly mother? Did they not take me to Christ to be baptized? To receive First Holy Communion? Even more importantly, would I even [b]know[/b] of Christ without my parents? Without my priests and teachers? Or, would I simply be as someone who has not yet been evangelized?

Mary is an evangelist. Indeed, she is the first evangelist. The goal of my life as a Catholic Christian is to love Jesus as much as a possibly can. I have had parents, teachers, priests, and good friends all teach me how to love Christ. But, who could have possibly loved Jesus more than His own Mother? If my goal is to love Jesus the most that I possibly can, I want the teacher that loved Him the most! I want Mary to teach me how to love her Son.

This is what devotion to Mary is all about. Yes, Jesus is the ONLY way to Salvation. But, the only way to get to Jesus is through one another. If it was not through one another, then evangelism would not be necessary. But evangelism IS necessary in order to reach new believers, and bring old ones back into the fold. And since evangelism is necessary, then so also is devotion to Mary, if you as a Christian are serious about loving Jesus as much as you possibly can.

[thessalonian]

Yes, the thing about Mary on the Cross was from James McCarthy's video and it was a woman who was martyred and not Mary.