Can you Criticize a Priest?

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

[font="ARIAL"][size=2][b][color="#660000"]The following are Our Lord's revelations to Mutter Vogel.[/color][/b] [/size][/font]

[font="ARIAL"][size=2][img]http://www.cukierski.net/goldcr1.gif[/img][b]"One should NEVER attack a priest, even when he's in error, rather one should pray and do penance that I'll grant him My grace again. He alone fully represents Me, even when he doesn't live after My example!" (page 29, Mutter Vogel's Worldwide Love, St. Grignion Publishing House, Altoting, South Germany (29.6, 1929) [/b] [/size][/font]

[font="ARIAL"][size=2][img]http://www.cukierski.net/goldcr1.gif[/img][b]"When a Priest falls we should extend him a helping hand through prayer and not through attacks! I, Myself will be his judge, no one but I! Whoever voices judgment over a priest has voiced it over me; child, never let a Priest be attacked, take up his defense." (Feast of Christ the King, 1937) [/b] [/size][/font]

[font="ARIAL"][size=2][img]http://www.cukierski.net/goldcr1.gif[/img][b]"Child, Never judge your confessor, rather pray much for him and offer every Thursday, through the hands of My Blessed Mother, Holy Communion (for him) (18.6, 1939)[/b] [/size][/font]

[font="ARIAL"][size=2][img]http://www.cukierski.net/goldcr1.gif[/img][b]"Never accept an out-of-the-way word about a Priest, and speak no unkind word (about them) even if it were true! Every Priest is My Vicar and My heart will be sickened and insulted because of it! If you hear a judgment (against a Priest) pray a Hail Mary." (28.6, 1939)[/b] [/size][/font]

[font="ARIAL"][size=2][b][color="#660000"][i]If you see a Priest who celebrates the Holy Mass unworthily, tell it to God! He stands by Him on the altar![/i][/color][/b][/size][/font]


[font="ARIAL"][size=2][b][color="#660000"][/color][/b][/size][/font]

[font="ARIAL"][size=2][b][color="#660000"][i]http://www.cukierski.net/priest.html
[/i][/color][/b] [/size][/font]

[littleflower+JMJ]

I was about to direct you to the prayerbook that mentions something like this...although not quite. as the same

[Era Might]

Who is "Mutter Vogel" and and has he/she submitted these "revelations" to the Church?

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1028639' date='Jul 21 2006, 10:48 PM'] Who is "Mutter Vogel" and and has he/she submitted these "revelations" to the Church? [/quote]To be honest, I am not sure... I thought it was some good things to point out...

[Era Might]

I'm kind of put off by the messages, honestly. Maybe because we live in the times that we do, with the scandal and all. I'm all for prayer and respect for Priests, but keeping silent about their sins brought harm to a lot of children.

[jswranch]

Here, is 'attack' defined as 'physically beat up' or telling him, 'Fr., you dont know your collar from a hole in the ground."

Biblical note:
If St. Paul can chew out St. Peter, the first pope, then we can get on the case of priests, perhaps even bishops, in some level.

[brendan1104]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1028639' date='Jul 21 2006, 11:48 PM']
Who is "Mutter Vogel" and and has he/she submitted these "revelations" to the Church?[/quote]

Mutter Vogel was a German woman (not sure if she was definitely a nun) who lived in the early part of the 20th century. Her "revelations" have never been approved- in fact, I think she was condemned.

These quotes are from the popular Pieta prayer booklet- where unbelievable and heretical promises attached to looking at or carrying an image or prayer are found. The 'promises' attached to the "St. Bridget prayers"- the text itself of the prayer aren't bad- have been explicity condemned by the Vatican, and the other "promises" in the booklet are negated by the Church's dogmatic beliefs.

Much of what is contained in the Pieta prayer book is good: approved prayers, promotion of the Rosary and Scapular, etc. But some of it is heretical, superstitious, and wrong. This is exactly what the devil wants. The devil will say 10 things- 9 of which are very good, but the 10th will be bad and is intended to lead to the damnation and loss/harm of souls.

The Church's tradition teaches that Catholics can, and sometimes must rebuke or criticize the clergy- whether they are a priest, bishop, or pope if they teach heresy, disregard the rubrics and texts of the Mass and other Sacraments, are known to be sinning, etc. This is true today, more than ever- with the sex abuse scandal, rampant liturgical abuse, and false teaching and preaching.

Criticizing priests occured in the Church's earliest days, as can be read in Scripture. St. Paul rebuked St. Peter who was the pope and head of the Apostles publicly:

[quote]But when Cephas (St. Peter) was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.[/quote] Galatians, Ch. 2 Vs. 11.

Mutter Vogel's "revelations" and "teachings" should be given no credence, no attention, and condemned.

Edited July 22, 2006 by brendan1104

[Akalyte]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1028856' date='Jul 22 2006, 01:46 PM']
Mutter Vogel was a German woman (not sure if she was definitely a nun) who lived in the early part of the 20th century. Her "revelations" have never been approved- in fact, I think she was condemned.

These quotes are from the popular Pieta prayer booklet- where unbelievable and heretical promises attached to looking at or carrying an image or prayer are found. The 'promises' attached to the "St. Bridget prayers"- the text itself of the prayer aren't bad- have been explicity condemned by the Vatican, and the other "promises" in the booklet are negated by the Church's dogmatic beliefs.

Much of what is contained in the Pieta prayer book is good: approved prayers, promotion of the Rosary and Scapular, etc. But some of it is heretical, superstitious, and wrong. This is exactly what the devil wants. The devil will say 10 things- 9 of which are very good, but the 10th will be bad and is intended to lead to the damnation and loss/harm of souls.

The Church's tradition teaches that Catholics can, and sometimes must rebuke or criticize the clergy- whether they are a priest, bishop, or pope if they teach heresy, disregard the rubrics and texts of the Mass and other Sacraments, are known to be sinning, etc. This is true today, more than ever- with the sex abuse scandal, rampant liturgical abuse, and false teaching and preaching.

Criticizing priests occured in the Church's earliest days, as can be read in Scripture. St. Paul rebuked St. Peter who was the pope and head of the Apostles publicly:

Galatians, Ch. 2 Vs. 11.

Mutter Vogel's "revelations" and "teachings" should be given no credence, no attention, and condemned.
[/quote]

careful you know people dont believe those things anymore, especially on here. lol

[Colleen]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1028861' date='Jul 22 2006, 03:05 PM']
careful you know people dont believe those things anymore, especially on here. lol
[/quote]
On here?

[brendan1104]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1028861' date='Jul 22 2006, 03:05 PM']
careful you know people dont believe those things anymore, especially on here. lol
[/quote]

what things?

[prose]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1028856' date='Jul 22 2006, 12:46 PM']
Mutter Vogel was a German woman (not sure if she was definitely a nun) who lived in the early part of the 20th century. Her "revelations" have never been approved- in fact, I think she was condemned.

These quotes are from the popular Pieta prayer booklet- where unbelievable and heretical promises attached to looking at or carrying an image or prayer are found. The 'promises' attached to the "St. Bridget prayers"- the text itself of the prayer aren't bad- have been explicity condemned by the Vatican, and the other "promises" in the booklet are negated by the Church's dogmatic beliefs.

Much of what is contained in the Pieta prayer book is good: approved prayers, promotion of the Rosary and Scapular, etc. But some of it is heretical, superstitious, and wrong. This is exactly what the devil wants. The devil will say 10 things- 9 of which are very good, but the 10th will be bad and is intended to lead to the damnation and loss/harm of souls.

The Church's tradition teaches that Catholics can, and sometimes must rebuke or criticize the clergy- whether they are a priest, bishop, or pope if they teach heresy, disregard the rubrics and texts of the Mass and other Sacraments, are known to be sinning, etc. This is true today, more than ever- with the sex abuse scandal, rampant liturgical abuse, and false teaching and preaching.

Criticizing priests occured in the Church's earliest days, as can be read in Scripture. St. Paul rebuked St. Peter who was the pope and head of the Apostles publicly:

Galatians, Ch. 2 Vs. 11.

Mutter Vogel's "revelations" and "teachings" should be given no credence, no attention, and condemned.
[/quote]

I have a cousin who avidly promotes and encourages carrying around the pieta and all that it contains. Do you have any sort of information or links that I can direct to her with this information? Especially if there is some sort of condemnation from the Vatican! Thanks.

[Colleen]

Is that Pieta book paperback with a blue cover? I think I've seen one somewhere.

Edited July 23, 2006 by Colleen

[Akalyte]

What I meant was, when I criticise certain elements in the Church, I end up getting the third degree. By "things" i meant, the lay people being able to criticize those in error. I.E.,"modernists", "liberals"...

[iheartjp2]

Oh my gosh, I never knew the pieta prayer book was condemned by the church! I own that prayer book and at one time, actually tried using it for devotions. I found the common prayers, rosary, divine mercy chaplet, and the st. bridget prayers, but I didn't know that the pieta prayer book wasn't approved. I bought it at my local Catholic bookstore and I don't believe that the owner of that store would put anything that would be harmful to local Catholics on her shelves. As prose asked, could you provide some info as to what the Church actually said concerning the pieta prayer book?

[quote name='Colleen']Is that Pieta book paperback with a blue cover? I think I've seen one somewhere.[/quote]

Yeah, it is.

[iheartjp2]

I also pretty much disagree with this Mutter person, whoever they are for the previously stated reasons.

Edited July 23, 2006 by iheartjp2

[Jaime]

[quote]Is that Pieta book paperback with a blue cover? I think I've seen one somewhere. [/quote]

And it has the imprimatur which means that it is FULLY approved by the Church as recommended reading. If you purchased one today, you'd STILL find the imprimatur.

It has not been condemned.

[Era Might]

Regarding the criticism of a superior, it must be done with great caution. Bishops in particular:

[quote]Let every one bear in mind that most wise teaching of Gregory the Great: "Subjects should be admonished not rashly to judge their prelates, even if they chance to see them acting in a blameworthy manner, lest, justly reproving what is wrong, they be led by pride into greater wrong. They are to be warned against the danger of setting themselves up in audacious opposition to the superiors whose shortcomings they may notice. Should, therefore, the superiors really have committed grievous sins, their inferiors, penetrated with the fear of God, ought not to refuse them respectful submission. The actions of superiors should not be smitten by the sword of the word, even when they are rightly judged to have deserved censure."

--Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter "Sapientiae Christianae"[/quote]
Canon Law also has something to say:

[quote]Christ's faithful are at liberty to make known their needs, especially their spiritual needs, and their wishes to the Pastors of the Church.

[Lay persons] have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

--Canon 212[/quote]
My point wasn't that we should go around screaming "heretic" at a Priest or Bishop, or setting ourselves up as their superiors in front of others. But, obviously, we can discuss problems that impact the Church (especially when they are criminal), and ask a Priest or a Bishop to reconsider their behavior; always keeping in mind that the Pope alone is their judge.

The example of St. Paul rebuking St. Peter is not a good one, because St. Paul was an Apostle and a brother Bishop. We do not have that lofty place, and so we must always keep in mind our humble place in the Church.

However, I still remain wary of the emphasis in those "Mutter Vogel" quotes, and would not be inclined to believe they are authentic revelations from Our Lord. But, they may be approved by the Church. I don't know.

Edited July 23, 2006 by Era Might

[Fides_et_Ratio]

can someone scan or confirm the Imprimatur? Brendan, where did you get your info?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1029294' date='Jul 22 2006, 10:03 PM']
can someone scan or confirm the Imprimatur? Brendan, where did you get your info?
[/quote]

I'm staring at my Pieta right now. Its there.

[Birgitta Noel]

I think the key here is to look at the language used.

"Attack"
"Unkind"
"Judge"

There are lots of interpretations of those words.

We can offer fraternal correction to a priest in the proper manner and that is not attacking. We can offer constructive criticism. Attacking is different.

We can speak the truth about a priest without being unkind, ie with due charity and only speaking truths when they are perhaps harmful when necessary, ie to protect children.

We can accept the mercy and grace given by our confessors, poor instruments though they may be and not judge their souls or intentions, and pray for them. Prayer can never hurt!

Just a few thoughts. There's nothing dubious if this is the meaning the author is attaching to the words. The intention may have been to correct those who were looking at the splinter in their priest's eye and ignoring the plank in their own