Mary Did You Know?

[Pliny]

In the song "Mary Did You Know," which I like, and if I ever get my voice to where I want it to be would like to sing in Church some day, has a part that says, "This Child that you delivered will soon deliver you."

Would this be theologically correct? Did Mary need to be delivered?

Could some artistic license be allowed, or would this be an inappropriate song for a Catholic service?

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Pliny' date='22 December 2009 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1261525622' post='2024741']
In the song "Mary Did You Know," which I like, and if I ever get my voice to where I want it to be would like to sing in Church some day, has a part that says, "This Child that you delivered will soon deliver you."

Would this be theologically correct? Did Mary need to be delivered?

Could some artistic license be allowed, or would this be an inappropriate song for a Catholic service?
[/quote]

Yes, Mary needed a Savior - Jesus, as we all do. The idea is that Mary was saved by Jesus before she fell into the hole of original sin unlike us.

[dominicansoul]

"Mary did you know?"

Yes...yes she did...

[Pliny]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='22 December 2009 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1261526204' post='2024749']
Yes, Mary needed a Savior - Jesus, as we all do. The idea is that Mary was saved by Jesus before she fell into the hole of original sin unlike us.
[/quote]


Agreed, but in the song it says "would soon deliver you." She was already "delivered" at her conception.

This song was written by a Protestant, who probably does not believe or understand the Immaculate Conception, but from our perspective, would that be an inappropriate song, since it seems to be implying that she has yet to be delivered? Or could we give some room to artistic license?

[Jaime]

[sup]Luke 1:

46[/sup]And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
[sup]47[/sup]and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,


yup

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Pliny' date='22 December 2009 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1261525622' post='2024741']
Would this be theologically correct? [/quote]

No.

Bl. Pius IX, [i]Inffabilis Deus[/i] (my emphasis):
[quote name=Pope Bl. Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus]We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, [u][b]in the first instance of her conception[/b], by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin[/u], is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.[/quote]

"Mary Did You Know":
[quote name=Mary Did you Know]Did you know
That your baby boy
Has come to make you new?
This child that you've delivered
Will soon deliver you.[/quote]

[quote name='Pliny' date='22 December 2009 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1261525622' post='2024741']
Could some artistic license be allowed, or would this be an inappropriate song for a Catholic service?
[/quote]

This song would definitely be inappropriate, both due to the lyrics and the style of the piece.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Arpy]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='22 December 2009 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1261527777' post='2024778']
"Mary did you know?"

Yes...yes she did...
[/quote]
This is why I hate "Were You There" too. They annoy me more than a lot of Protestant music.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='23 December 2009 - 12:14 AM' timestamp='1261545285' post='2024882']
No.

Bl. Pius IX, [i]Inffabilis Deus[/i] (my emphasis):


"Mary Did You Know":




This song would definitely be inappropriate, both due to the lyrics and the style of the piece.
[/quote]

She still needed a savior kiddo. She was immaculately conceived and still needed a savior

[Pliny]

The question is not whether she needed a savior. That's a given, but she was saved "in advance" so that's why the question arises whether it would be accurate to say she would soon be delivered.


Regarding "style"--if the style of that song is inappropriate for Mass, then so is 85% of the stuff that passes for liturgical music.

[ThePenciledOne]

Come on now man, this is like my favorite Christmas song!!! Leave it alone.

lol

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='23 December 2009 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1261546873' post='2024895']
She still needed a savior kiddo. She was immaculately conceived and still needed a savior
[/quote]

Christ indeed is our Lady's Savior. That said, it is indeed incorrect for the song to say that Christ would "soon deliver her". He had redeemed her by the merits of His Passion at the moment of her Conception.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Pliny' date='23 December 2009 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1261547601' post='2024899']
Regarding "style"--if the style of that song is inappropriate for Mass, then so is 85% of the stuff that passes for liturgical music.
[/quote]

Indeed, it probably is.

[Pliny]

Ever sing "Lord of the Dance" in Church?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Pliny' date='23 December 2009 - 01:10 AM' timestamp='1261548636' post='2024908']
Ever sing "Lord of the Dance" in Church?
[/quote]

I attend the EF Mass.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Moosey]

[quote name='Pliny' date='23 December 2009 - 02:10 AM' timestamp='1261548636' post='2024908']
Ever sing "Lord of the Dance" in Church?
[/quote]
Puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuke.

Unfortunately, yes. At least I've heard it for I refuse to sing it. Total bastardization of Copland's "simple gifts"

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Moosey' date='23 December 2009 - 01:22 AM' timestamp='1261549364' post='2024910']
Puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuke.

Unfortunately, yes. At least I've heard it for I refuse to sing it. Total bastardization of Copland's "simple gifts"
[/quote]
We have two 'hymnals' - and trust me, I'm using that term [u]very [/u]liberally - at my parish. One is combined with the readings and is hardcover, and the other is some paperback garbage thrown together by hippie protestant 'singer-songwriters'. I think it's called Voices as One or some rubbish to that effect. It's virtually all that's sung at the "Praise and Worship mass" on Sunday at 5:30, featuring the lovely ensemble of the same variety(which I do my absolute best to avoid). It contains such hits as "We are one body" - which is compulsory to be sung during communion, even if it means hurriedly rushing through the first and last verses only of the planned hymn to get to it...it always features a lovely improvised solo by our prima donna alto during the chorus (and occasionally during other parts of the song as well), which, and trust me here, really adds to the intended nuance of receiving Christ in the Eucharist - "If Today You Hear the Voice of God", "A rainbow is a sign of the love of the Lord" (which I have never had to endure, Deo Gratias), "On that Holy Mountain" (one of the 'p&w' band's greatest hits), and of course, the traditional Catholic hymn "Lord, I Lift Your Name on High". You can tell which one will be used, because on the song roster board deal (aside: is there a proper name for this?) the triple-digited songs are hymns from the hardcover (which has some decent hymns) and the double numbered ones are from the [s]Farces[/s]Voices as One (it's to be noted that the double digits in the hardcover are Latin settings of the Ordinary of the Mass and things to this effect, but why would we ever use those, right?). I refuse to touch that steaming pile of paper-bound, profane waste and will either stand reverently in silence or try to ignore their cacaphony to focus on my internalized prayers, according to what's going on in the mass.

Oh, and this just in, in case you were wondering: guitars are bad to have at mass, as well as upright basses; soprano saxophones don't help a bit; drum sets only serve to exacerbate the condition. Trust me on these, I know from (lots and lots) of experience.

And to all of you thinking, "Oh, it can't be that bad,", keep your Sunday evening free and I'll save you a seat. Come during the spring or summer though, so you can see the priest's birkenstocks. That's my free gift to you to keep, even if you must rush out to vomit when they "strike up the band".

Edited December 23, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Pliny' date='22 December 2009 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1261525622' post='2024741']
In the song "Mary Did You Know," which I like, and if I ever get my voice to where I want it to be would like to sing in Church some day, has a part that says, "This Child that you delivered will soon deliver you."

Would this be theologically correct? Did Mary need to be delivered?

Could some artistic license be allowed, or would this be an inappropriate song for a Catholic service?
[/quote]

Probably not the worst of offenses in the world, and I'm not sure if it was intentional or not. But I do think its inappropriate for the Mass. There should be no place in the Mass for any question regarding doctrine whatsoever, whether it be in the words of the liturgy or the homily or the hymns used. It is doctrinally, at least questionable if not outright false. Best to be avoided in my opinion.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='22 December 2009 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1261527777' post='2024778']
"Mary did you know?"

Yes...yes she did...
[/quote]

I disagree. She is not God and could not have known what was to transpire in the life of Christ when he was born. The angel told her she would give birth to the Savior. She said that her soul magnifies the Lord. This she could know from the angel's message of her bearing the savior that God would use to redeem His people; however, the angel departs and says nothing about suffering. A later prohpecy tells her that her heart will be pierced with sorry. In fact, the Bible said she kept these things in her heart and pondered them. If she has to reflect on them and be told later she didn't know at the birth. Also, the idea of a suffering messiah interpretation of Isaiah (messiah not just servant- remember even one of the Apostles didn't understand Christ's mission of salvation would come through suffering) is not seen until after Jesus from the teaching of his Apostles. Full stop. The idea of suffering messiah is not seen in any writings before Christ. This means that either Jesus taught them this interpretation of Isaiah or they thought of it themselves. The latter idea is not likely since the Bible constantly shows the disciples being corrected and taught by Jesus and Jesus was known for his wisdom of the things of Scripture (remember him in the temple). Now if he is wise in these things in the temple, then either he was divinely inspired through his special relationship with God (as Son and yet still human which means that there are things even he does not know- remember he admits to this) to understand, Mary taught him, or Joseph did. I tend to think it is the first since the interpretation would have to be a new idea that occurred to Mary or Joseph and it is not seen before the Apostles's writings. I don't think Mary knew. I think she had to discern and be obedient just like the rest of humanity. We do note that she was the perfect model of obedience and that does not mean knowing, but it does mean discerning (which is easy when an angel talks to you, you just have to figure out who sent him) and then follow it. Understanding is not required. THIS is why she is our model of faith and obedience. She heard and obeyed. She understood a bit about how she was a handmaid of the Lord and helped bring about his plan...but other than that.... I mean, Abraham was called to be obedient to God's promise of giving him a child even if he didn't know how. Mary knew Jesus was the Savior even if she didn't know how he would do these things (this can be seen when she tells the servants at the wedding to follow Jesus and do what he says- she knows he will do something to help, she doesn't know how it will happen though) Being sinless doesn't mean not needing to discern the will of God. No, she did not know

"that her baby boy will give sight to a blind man?... baby boy will calm a storm with his hand?...that your baby boy has walked where angels trod?...that the blind will see...The deaf will hear...The dead will live again...The lame will leap...The dumb will speak The praises of The Lamb..."

She had the pleasure of things being revealed in due time just as the rest of us. Not to mention what does the Holy Spirit or Son of God mean to Mary in 0 A.D. It means something very different than what we know it to mean after the Councils and such and the defining of the terms Incarnation or the Lamb of God and all the ideas of redemptive suffering that involves. Did she know Christ was greater than the prophets? Yea. Did she know he was Savior? Yes, the angel said so. Did she know intellectually what the Incarnation was? Probably not. Jesus probably explained it later, I'm guessing. Would she have known in her heart that this child was human and yet more and was truly "God with us?" I'd be willing to say yes, but she did not know intellectually. Knowledge of the heart does not mean that one can verbalize it--especially if one does not have the technical language to do so. She could not have known as a human being even though she was sinless. She was and is the perfect model of faith and obedience for us. This is why she is the model of the Church.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[Didacus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='22 December 2009 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1261544195' post='2024877']
[sup]Luke 1:

46[/sup]And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
[sup]47[/sup]and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,


yup
[/quote]


Bing Bing Bing!
We have a winner!

+1 and a free T-shirt out back for you.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='23 December 2009 - 02:30 AM' timestamp='1261553421' post='2024922']
I disagree. She is not God and could not have known what was to transpire in the life of Christ when he was born. The angel told her she would give birth to the Savior. She said that her soul magnifies the Lord. This she could know from the angel's message of her bearing the savior that God would use to redeem His people; however, the angel departs and says nothing about suffering.

[snip]
[/quote]

Very insightful view although I believe you may be reading too much into the question.

The question is not; 'Did Mary know everything?' but perhaps 'Mary did you know your son is your saviour?'.

I believe Mary knew very well that her son was the saviour of humanity, that her son was the Son of God, and even that her son was God Himself (a member of the Trinity). Everything after that knowledge are details according to His plan, which even though she did not know all those details, she accepted - even when told of suffering to come.