reyb Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1333769364' post='2413845'] Didn't, because there was no need to mess with perfection. [/quote] Are you saying Catholics cannot explain it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333732796' post='2413692'] Please, let us go back to our discussion [/quote] Will do. Bear in mind your failure to respond to my question forfeits your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333766850' post='2413821'] I am asking..... Do you agree your Church added something to the ‘tradition’ given by the Apostles? [/quote] For example?[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333771098' post='2413864'] Are you saying Catholics cannot explain it? [/quote] What is "it"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1333661429' post='2413448'] And when they contradict, do you flip a coin? And when they agree, you have a majority vote, so majority wins? [/quote] [quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1333779983' post='2413911'] Will do. Bear in mind your failure to respond to my question forfeits your position. [/quote] Apparently you will see contradictions not only in the Holy Qur’an as against the Holy Bible but also within the Holy Bible itself (or within the Holy Qur’an). For example, God can be seen (see John 14:6-7, Matt 5:8). So, whatever does it mean, the message will remain, you can see God. On the other hand, it is also written (see 1 John 4:11-12), ‘No one has ever seen God’. Again whatever definition we give to the word ‘see’ just the same you cannot see God. Now, usually Atheist or non- Christian can easily recognize it since they are simply reading it and usually they are looking for these contradictions for their own agenda. While in your case it is different although you see it most likely you will ignore it because you accepted the sacredness of the Holy Bible for being a Christian and more than that you will surely justify its consistency by giving meaning to whatever term necessary in order to dissolve such conflicting issues. This is not a good thing. Let God reveal its consistencies rather than you do it yourself because you will never get it. So in our example, whether a man can see God or not, some justification is like this: You will see God in heaven but not here on earth, and then they thought the issue is settled and the consistency of the bible is justified. Then, again when the question arises regarding Jacob who sees God face to face in Genesis 32:30 as well as Moses in Exodus 33:11 and others. Then, they will say. It is not the Lord. It is an angel. Notwithstanding the written word ‘Lord’ in these verses and not ‘angel’ and then they will further justify their position by saying, witnesses in Old Testament are stupid in calling Lord whenever they see an angel. (at least they are saying it in a nice way). They thought they are doing the right thing in protecting the scripture. They are really in error in thinking defender of truth rather than defender of their faith for their own self preservation as leaders and teachers. The word of God is fully protected by God himself. Thus, it is hidden in mystery to people who are not yet seen the Glory of God. God himself is protecting it because no one else can and should do it. So what is the sense of justifying its apparent contradictions by means of your own talent and ability? But do not close your eyes in pretending you do not see them because you are no longer asking for truth in that way. Again I said, apparently you will see contradiction and that is a very natural thing because these testimonies are written by witnesses who see God while in your case (this is just for example and I am not trying to insinuate anything) you are reading it using your own talent and ability. If you truly trust God with all you heart and everything and you are truly seeking for the truth. He will surely come and He himself will explain it to you. Now, do I mean then that the scripture is full of inconsistencies? Of course not, that is why I said ‘apparently’. It is written, anyone who sees Christ sees God (John 14:6) and anyone who sees Christ will be blind. (Act 22:6ff). A man who see the light of God becomes blind not because of the light itself but because he is in the dark for a long, long, long time and suddenly he is expose into that light. Thus, when he comes no one recognizes him and they only realized He is the Christ after he left them. Now, this coming is forever in his heart because seeing the unseen is a moment of eternity which is always be today. They are all longing to see him again because he needs to return the favor of everything he has done. To say, sorry and thank you before I closed my eyes and be forever gone. So, when you see contradictions do not toss a coin. Let God do the trick. Okay? Edited April 7, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333801335' post='2413923'] For example? What is "it"? [/quote] Everything you (Catholics) said about this ‘growth and development’ in your Dei Verbum. Edited April 7, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333815034' post='2413993'] Everything you (Catholics) said about this ‘growth and development’ in your Dei Verbum. [/quote] I didn't saying anything in Dei Verbum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333637670' post='2413274'] The first Christians “were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles” (Acts 2:42, 2 Timothy 1:14) long before the New Testament was written—and centuries before the New Testament canon was settled. The Bible affirms that Christian teaching is “preached” (1 Peter 1:25), that the Apostles’ successors were to teach what they have “heard” (2 Timothy. 2:2), and that Christian teaching is passed on both “by word of mouth [and] by letter” (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corrithians 11:2). Not everything Christ did is recorded in sacred Scripture (John 21:25). New Testament authors availed themselves of sacred Tradition. For example, Acts 20:35 quotes a saying of Jesus that is not recorded in the Gospels. Scripture needs an authoritative interpreter (Acts 8:30-31; 2 Peter 1:20-21, 3:15-16). Christ left a Church with divine authority to teach in His name (Matthew 16:13-20, 18:18; Luke 10:16). The Church will last until the end of time, and the Holy Spirit protects the Church’s teaching from corruption (Matthew 16:18, 28:19-20; John 14:16). The Church—and not the Bible alone—is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). The Bible does not refer to Scripture as the exclusive source of the Word of God. Jesus Himself is the Word (John 1:1, 14), and in 1 Thessolonians 2:13, St. Paul’s first epistle, he refers to “the Word of God which you heard from us.” There St. Paul is clearly referring to oral apostolic teaching: Tradition. i.e. Sola Scriptura is not scriptural. [/quote] Eventually we will discuss this later but I am waiting for a definite and honest answer regarding that ‘tradition’ which was handed down to you (Catholics) by the Apostles. What is that ‘tradition’ you claim given to you to insult protestants instead of treating them as a brother? Is it wrong to put your trust in the scripture alone? So, if sola scriptura is not scriptural explain to us what is that ‘tradition’ you are bragging about. Let us discuss this once again so that we may achieve something for the goodness of all. Edited April 8, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333842318' post='2414167'] I didn't saying anything in Dei Verbum. [/quote] Are you a Catholic? I thought you are. Well anyway I will try to post them here. Edited April 8, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333801335' post='2413923'] For example? What is "it"? [/quote] [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333815034' post='2413993'] Everything you (Catholics) said about this ‘growth and development’ in your Dei Verbum. [/quote] [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333842318' post='2414167'] I didn't saying anything in Dei Verbum. [/quote] [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333845181' post='2414189'] Are you a Catholic? I thought you are. Well anyway I will try to post them here. [/quote] Since you are asking me to give example of this ‘growth and development’ in your Church (you should know it because you are a Catholic), one pretty obvious example is the Roman Catholic Mariology. Now, I am expecting you to discuss with me the ‘tradition’ given to you (Catholics) by the Apostles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333845079' post='2414186'] Eventually we will discuss this later but I am waiting for a definite and honest answer regarding that ‘tradition’ which was handed down to you (Catholics) by the Apostles. What is that ‘tradition’ you claim given to you to insult protestants instead of treating them as a brother? Is it wrong to put your trust in the scripture alone? So, if sola scriptura is not scriptural explain to us what is that ‘tradition’ you are bragging about. Let us discuss this once again so that we may achieve something for the goodness of all. [/quote] What is the pillar and foundation of truth? If we believe that the Bible is the infallible inspired word of God, 1 Timothy 3:15 tells us we find that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. So basically, you are asking how/why do Catholics accept the teaching authority of the Church together with the Bible as the basis for our Faith. Well we didn't actually come to this position; we have been simply living it out since the very inception of the Church. A brief historical perspective might be helpful in understanding this. We know that the New Testament books were not really put together as a completed Bible until approximately 400 AD. So we know that the earliest Christians did not have access to the written word. We also know that until the invention of the printing press in the 1450's, the Bible was not accessible to most people due to the difficult and time consuming task of making copies by hand. It wasn't even until fairly recently that faithful Christians were educated enough to be able to read the Bible. Make you wonder how the Christian faith was passed on to believers during this period of when access to the Bible was quite limited. The answer is that practically all of the teaching during this time was done by oral instruction relying on the teaching authority of the Church for the proper interpretation of the Scriptures and for the passing on of Apostolic Tradition. The Bible itself is quite clear regarding the significance of tradition (see John 21:25, 2 Timothy 2:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2). Since these scripture references, along with many others, refer to both tradition and the spoken word, they MUST be integrated into the Christian understanding of revelation. Since the Word of God can not contradict itself, the only choice we have as Bible believing Christians is to accept tradition as well as scripture as our source of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333884177' post='2414369'] What is the pillar and foundation of truth? If we believe that the Bible is the infallible inspired word of God, 1 Timothy 3:15 tells us we find that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. So basically, you are asking how/why do Catholics accept the teaching authority of the Church together with the Bible as the basis for our Faith. Well we didn't actually come to this position; we have been simply living it out since the very inception of the Church. A brief historical perspective might be helpful in understanding this. We know that the New Testament books were not really put together as a completed Bible until approximately 400 AD. So we know that the earliest Christians did not have access to the written word. We also know that until the invention of the printing press in the 1450's, the Bible was not accessible to most people due to the difficult and time consuming task of making copies by hand. It wasn't even until fairly recently that faithful Christians were educated enough to be able to read the Bible. Make you wonder how the Christian faith was passed on to believers during this period of when access to the Bible was quite limited. The answer is that practically all of the teaching during this time was done by oral instruction relying on the teaching authority of the Church for the proper interpretation of the Scriptures and for the passing on of Apostolic Tradition. The Bible itself is quite clear regarding the significance of tradition (see John 21:25, 2 Timothy 2:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2). Since these scripture references, along with many others, refer to both tradition and the spoken word, they MUST be integrated into the Christian understanding of revelation. Since the Word of God can not contradict itself, the only choice we have as Bible believing Christians is to accept tradition as well as scripture as our source of faith. [/quote] Regarding the Holy Bible – this is another ‘growth and development’ within you church in compiling it (no more than that). It is not prudent for anyone to consider Catholics wrote it because, Marcion has his own version of New Testament before Catholics. Obviously Marcionites did not claim they wrote it so it is not wise to say Catholics did it. (see [url="http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-canon-of-marcion.htm"]http://www.bible.ca/...-of-marcion.htm[/url] Of course, the Church of God must be the pillar and foundation of Truth because it is God’s house. Actually it is said to be greater than the gates of Hades as if the writer is comparing the strength of the Church and this gate - an analogy in comparison between the Church of God and gates of hell. Usually Catholics quoted Matthew 16:17 in reference to their Church – The Roman Catholic Church. So if it is true please explain to us that ‘tradition’ given by the Apostles to your Church. I asked this because there are two kinds of offerings with almost the same doing. Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 10:14-22 [indent=1]Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.[/indent] [indent=1]Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons , not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?[/indent] He is mentioning about two sacrifices, the sacrifices of pagans offered to demons and sacrifices to God. He is also mentioning two cups, the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. He is also mentioning of two tables, the table of demons and the Lord’s Table. But it seems he saying there are Christians within that Church (Who's Church is this?) doing such things. Therefore, these Christians cannot recognize the difference of these offerings because, it is unconceivable to be intentional. Why they will do it if not they are being deceived? Therefore, it is very important to know where we are now. Again, if the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church of God, can you please tell us what is that ‘tradition’ given to you by the Apostles? Edited April 8, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333637670' post='2413274'] The first Christians “were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles” (Acts 2:42, 2 Timothy 1:14) long before the New Testament was written—and centuries before the New Testament canon was settled. The Bible affirms that Christian teaching is “preached” (1 Peter 1:25), that the Apostles’ successors were to teach what they have “heard” (2 Timothy. 2:2), and that Christian teaching is passed on both “by word of mouth [and] by letter” (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corrithians 11:2). Not everything Christ did is recorded in sacred Scripture (John 21:25). New Testament authors availed themselves of sacred Tradition. For example, Acts 20:35 quotes a saying of Jesus that is not recorded in the Gospels. Scripture needs an authoritative interpreter (Acts 8:30-31; 2 Peter 1:20-21, 3:15-16). Christ left a Church with divine authority to teach in His name (Matthew 16:13-20, 18:18; Luke 10:16). The Church will last until the end of time, and the Holy Spirit protects the Church’s teaching from corruption (Matthew 16:18, 28:19-20; John 14:16). The Church—and not the Bible alone—is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). The Bible does not refer to Scripture as the exclusive source of the Word of God. Jesus Himself is the Word (John 1:1, 14), and in 1 Thessolonians 2:13, St. Paul’s first epistle, he refers to “the Word of God which you heard from us.” There St. Paul is clearly referring to oral apostolic teaching: Tradition. i.e. Sola Scriptura is not scriptural. [/quote] Okay. If these stories are true as in historical realities. What is that 'tradition' given by the Apostles to your Church? And in what form this handled tradition? Edited April 8, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333892282' post='2414386'] Regarding the Holy Bible – this is another ‘growth and development’ within you church in compiling it (no more than that). It is not prudent for anyone to consider Catholics wrote it because, Marcion has his own version of New Testament before Catholics. Obviously Marcionites did not claim they wrote it so it is not wise to say Catholics did it. (see [url="http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-canon-of-marcion.htm"]http://www.bible.ca/...-of-marcion.htm[/url] Of course, the Church of God must be the pillar and foundation of Truth because it is God’s house. Actually it is said to be greater than the gates of Hades as if the writer is comparing the strength of the Church and this gate - an analogy in comparison between the Church of God and gates of hell. Usually Catholics quoted Matthew 16:17 in reference to their Church – The Roman Catholic Church. So if it is true please explain to us that ‘tradition’ given by the Apostles to your Church. I asked this because there are two kinds of offerings with almost the same doing. Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 10:14-22 [indent=1]Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.[/indent] [indent=1]Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons , not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?[/indent] He is mentioning about two sacrifices, the sacrifices of pagans offered to demons and sacrifices to God. He is also mentioning two cups, the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. He is also mentioning of two tables, the table of demons and the Lord’s Table. But it seems he saying there are Christians within that Church (Who's Church is this?) doing such things. Therefore, these Christians cannot recognize the difference of these offerings because, it is unconceivable to be intentional. Why they will do it if not they are being deceived? Therefore, it is very important to know where we are now. Again, if the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church of God, can you please tell us what is that ‘tradition’ given to you by the Apostles? [/quote] [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333900969' post='2414426'] Okay. If these stories are true as in historical realities. What is that 'tradition' given by the Apostles to your Church? And in what form this handled tradition? [/quote] Please excuse me while I practice the tradition on celebrating the Risen Lord....which ain't scriptural...but I am celebrating anyway. God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333904446' post='2414434'] Please excuse me while I practice the tradition on celebrating the Risen Lord....which ain't scriptural...but I am celebrating anyway. God bless you. [/quote] I will wait for your answer so that the world may know. Everyone must be informed of that ‘tradition’ Catholics are openly and pride fully confessing to the world but secretly hiding its true meaning for almost 2000 years. You yourself as Catholics must be informed of these things because you claimed it was given to you by the Apostles. What is that tradition given to you so that you can say ‘growth and development’ of that thing never changes it? You must explain it to the world especially if you are a Pope, Bishop, Priest or whatever title of being a leader in your church because false teachers are teachers too and he, being a false teacher, bring not only himself to forever damnation but also cheating the youth and the innocent by promising them hope while he himself is hopeless and promising them salvation while his damnation is hanging and fast approaching. So please teachers be honest and tell us – what is that ‘tradition’ given to you by the Apostles? Edited April 8, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 Why don't you read a flooping book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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