Growth And Development In Catholic Tradition Is Not Apostolic

[arfink]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333953684' post='2414696']
I am not asking for all teachings on Roman Catholic Church. I am asking just the ‘tradition’ given to you (Roman Catholic Church) by the Apostles.
[/quote]

All our teachings combined [i]is [/i]our tradition given to us by the Apostles. Jesus teaches apostles about the faith, gives them gift of holy spirit so that they can be equipped to teach -> apostles teach next generation of bishops about the faith, gives them gift of holy spirit -> next generation of bishops teaches people about the faith, gives them gift of holy spirit -> and so on.

That's how tradition works. Tradition includes everything. EVERYTHING. Including scripture itself, which was produced by Roman Catholic Tradition! Our "Tradition" is the fullness of truth. And Catholics can trace the whole shooting match all the way back to Jesus.

[Papist]

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333982510' post='2414820']
Here's another try. If you still don't understand, I pray the Holy Spirit will help you. God bless you.


Sacred Tradition comes from Christ. It's the full, living gift of Christ to the Apostles, faithfully handed down through the centuries. It is through Tradition that the Holy Spirit makes the Jesus Christ present among us, offering us the very same saving Word and Sacraments that he gave to the Apostles. Christ did not hand the Apostles a bible and say "Go, make copies and tell everyone this is all they need."

Understanding Catholic Tradition is essential to understanding the Catholic Church and the Catholic Christian faith. Tradition is "handed down" The word "tradition" actually means handing down something to another person.

Scripture testifies to this meaning of Catholic Tradition as the normal mode of transmitting the Faith:

[color=#0000ff]"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

"For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you...." (1 Corinthians 11:23)

"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received...." (1 Corinthians 15:3)

"...I know whom I have believed [i.e., Jesus], and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us." (2 Timothy 1:11-14)

"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." (2 Timothy 2:1-2)

"...I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3)[/color]

This is the most basic meaning of Catholic Tradition: it is the true Faith itself, given to the Apostles by Christ and faithfully transmitted to each new generation. (Catechism, 77-78)

We often write Tradition, with a capital 'T', to mean Sacred Tradition. This Catholic Tradition is different from those traditions (small 't') that are merely customs, and which are not part of Divine Revelation.

The Vatican II Council noted the importance of seeing that Catholic Tradition is firmly rooted in [u]the Apostles[/u]: it is Christ's whole gift to them, and to us. The Council writes:

[color=#0000ff]In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion..., commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, and to impart to them heavenly gifts. (Dei Verbum, 7)[/color]

It is specifically this "commissioning of the Apostles" that is fulfilled in the handing on of Catholic Tradition. The Apostles dedicated themselves to this mission, and they appointed other faithful men to succeed them and carry on their work. That same passage of Dei Verbum continues:

[color=#0000ff]This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing. (Dei Verbum, 7)[/color]

Catholic Tradition stands [b][u]with[/u][/b] Scripture in forming the one single deposit of the Faith. For Catholics, Sacred Tradition is not in opposition to Scripture: they compliment and confirm one another.

Vatican II's Dei Verbum speaks of "a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture": "[b][u]both[/u][/b] of them... flow from the same divine wellspring."

[color=#0000ff]It says that "Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity." The Church, "led by the light of the Spirit of truth, ...may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known." (Dei Verbum, 9)[/color]

This statement reveals another key aspect of Catholic Tradition: it is linked to the active work of the Holy Spirit.

Pope Benedict XVI gave an awe0me catechesis on Catholic Tradition, which is very applicable of your misunderstanding, ([url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16ChrstChrch5.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/...ChrstChrch5.htm[/url]). He says that we miss the profound meaning of Catholic Tradition if we see it only as the handing on of a static Revelation. More than that, it is the active, continuous work of the Holy Spirit in our particular time: it makes real and tangible "the active presence of the Lord Jesus in his people, realized by the Holy Spirit".

Understanding that Catholic Tradition as the active presence of Christ through the work of the Spirit is precisely what accomplishes the "transmission of the goods of salvation" to us:

[color=#0000ff]Thanks to Tradition, guaranteed by the ministry of the apostles and their successors, the water of life that flowed from the side of Christ and his saving blood comes to the women and men of all times. In this way, Tradition is the permanent presence of the Savior who comes to meet, redeem and sanctify us in the Spirit through the ministry of his Church for the glory of the Father.[/color]

This reality of the divine action of the Holy Spirit within the Church is essential to understanding Catholic Tradition. It is what makes Sacred Tradition something far different than mere human traditions.

Through that same action of the Spirit, Catholic Tradition incorporates us into the Communion of the Saints. It ensures the connection "between the experience of the apostolic faith, lived in the original community of the disciples, and the present experience of Christ in his Church."

The Pope concludes with, [color=#0000ff]…we can therefore say that Tradition is not the transmission of things or words, a collection of dead things. Tradition is the living river that unites us to the origins, the living river in which the origins are always present, the great river that leads us to the port of eternity. In this living river, the word of the Lord...: "And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age", is fulfilled again (Matthew 28:20).[/color]

Through Catholic Tradition, the Holy Spirit works to bring the grace and truth of Christ into our own lives. It's real. And it's living right now in the Catholic Church!

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." (John 1:14)
[/quote]


This is the very thing I am saying since the beginning of this post. This thing you called ‘Divine Revelation’ or ‘Tradition’ is an insult to all of us to consider you alone can receive it.

The very reason why all witnesses are guiding or bringing you to Jesus Christ (To the real Christ and not to your historical Jesus) is because God alone can give it.

‘Divine Revelation’ is not a word or faith or belief or teaching or a thing or anything you can teach and accept by faith in this world.

‘Divine Revelation’ is not transferrable or transmittable or can be given by any man or can be handed down by anyone even if you are an Apostles or apostles or prophets or witnesses or Holy man or the holiest of all holy man or whatever title you give to yourself because Only God can reveal Himself, Only God can reveal his Word, Only God can reveal his Glory and Only God can give it to anyone he chooses.

If you did not understand me then you are not a priest or a bishop. You (priest and bishops) claim too much by your faith. Your faith is an insult to God because you do not need Him anymore to reveal himself. The rest is up to you not mine.

Edited April 9, 2012 by reyb

[Papist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333991661' post='2414932']
This is the very thing I am saying since the beginning of this post. This thing you called ‘Divine Revelation’ or ‘Tradition’ is an insult to all of us to consider you alone can receive it.

The very reason why all witnesses are guiding or bringing you to Jesus Christ (To the real Christ and not to your historical Jesus) is because God alone can give it.

‘Divine Revelation’ is not a word or faith or belief or teaching or a thing or anything you can teach and accept by faith in this world.

‘Divine Revelation’ is not transferrable or transmittable or can be given by any man or can be handed down by anyone even if you are an Apostles or apostles or prophets or witnesses or Holy man or the holiest of all holy man or whatever title you give to yourself because Only God can reveal Himself, Only God can reveal his Word, Only God can reveal his Glory and Only God can give it to anyone he chooses.

If you did not understand me then you are not a priest or a bishop. You (priest and bishops) claim too much by your faith. Your faith is an insult to God because you do not need Him anymore to reveal himself. The rest is up to you not mine.
[/quote]

Good. You see only God can reveal His word. How does He do that? How are we to recognize His word?

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333997383' post='2415010']
Good. You see only God can reveal His word. How does He do that? How are we to recognize His word?
[/quote]


When I come from the lips of Christ himself. And what does he says?

Edited April 9, 2012 by reyb

[Ice_nine]

does someone wanna give me a quick recap on what in the hell is going on around here?

[Papist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334002934' post='2415060']
When I come from the lips of Christ himself. And what does he says?
[/quote]

Oh I see. You are God. Nvm.

[Papist]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1334008035' post='2415106']
does someone wanna give me a quick recap on what in the hell is going on around here?
[/quote]

Just your run of the mill anticatholic troll I am playing with.

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334002934' post='2415060']
When I come from the lips of Christ himself. And what does he says?
[/quote]

Sorry, typo error... That is not what I mean.

what I mean is......when it comes from the lips of Christ himself.

....as you can see I followed it up with a question.....

what does he says?

[reyb]

what did he say?

Edited April 9, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1334008035' post='2415106'] does someone wanna give me a quick recap on what in the hell is going on around here? [/quote]


When I post it (my previous post). It is almost morning here. So after I post it I sleep. I did not clearly see that this short sentence becomes ‘I come from the lips of Christ himself’ rather than ‘It comes from the lips of Christ himself’ in Microsoft Word since I am now usually checking its spelling and grammar. My previous post is an answer to the question…..

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333997383' post='2415010'] Good. You see only God can reveal His word. [b]How does He do that? How are we to recognize His word? [/quote][/b]


Thus, I ask.

What does he says? (What did he say? To test him also).

Now, I want to explain to you what is happening.

The Catholic Priests and Bishops are simply saying there is something ‘handled down’ to them since the earliest time of Catholicism that they called ‘Divine Revelation’. This ‘Divine Revelation’ is also called ‘Tradition’. Thus, they say it can be ‘handled down’.

Now, since this ‘Divine Revelation’ is active and living, it grows. Thus, they are claiming whatever growth and development or whatever new found doctrines or whatever ‘new revealed truths’ they decided to approve – These things are not or should not be taken as ‘addition’ to the handed down ‘Divine Revelation’.

That is the essence of everything they are saying since the beginning of time. This is their secret (I may say) since they hid or not clearly explain them to ordinary Catholics.

Edited April 9, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1334008174' post='2415108'] Oh I see. You are God. Nvm. [/quote]

It is just a typo error. Sorry to all.

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1334008557' post='2415110']
Just your run of the mill anticatholic troll I am playing with.
[/quote]

Now, what did he say? (Since you are claiming this 'Divine Revelation' can be transmitted)

[arfink]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334021959' post='2415209']
Now, what did he say? (Since you are claiming this 'Divine Revelation' can be transmitted)
[/quote]

You really didn't read what Papist wrote, did you?

[reyb]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1334024350' post='2415229']
You really didn't read what Papist wrote, did you?
[/quote]


I asked what Christ did say to you (priest and bishops). I did not asked what you believe he said thru your Tradition. Because just like I said, ‘Divine Revelation’ comes from the lips of Christ himself. 'Divine Revelation' should come from the lips of God thru Christ. (It should be that way otherwise, there is no ‘Divine Revelation’ given to you).

So again, what did He say (can you please tell us)?

Edited April 10, 2012 by reyb