Laurie Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 I guess, to me, if that is NOT what Phatmass is for, then it comes across like a clique. It comes across as if you have to be pre-approved in order to belong here. It comes across as if everyone has to approve of everyone else, or it's not okay. To me, that seems like high school. MM, to be clear, I don't think that is what YOU are getting at above. It's just something I've picked up in various comments at various times where a bunch of people will suddenly descend and want a thread to be discontinued. I don't get it. That's not my frame of mind when I come here to engage in discussion and share ideas.
OnlySunshine Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 I think, though, the problem is that the thread was set up for a specific purpose. It wasn't set up for debate. It was set up to portray, in a cohesive manner, interpretations of this vocation. Once we understand the original intention, I think it is easier to get back on track and converse in a way that advances the intention of the thread. What I don't understand (and I don't spend much time on Phatmass, so perhaps this is why) is why people comment in a thread if they don't like that thread? I'm not trying to argue with you MaterMisercordiae. I just, myself, would not continue to read, and I wouldn't post in, a thread in which I didn't like the topic or the way others were treating the discussion. I thought that was the point of anyone and everyone being able to start a thread? That sub-groups of people can take a certain slant/topic/whatever and discuss it. And others are free to read it and join in, or not. Isn't that what Phatmass is for? It's really frustrating to me (and probably others) to come to VS and see this thread continually bumped up. I wanted to disengage from this thread the moment that I saw a religious Sister being disrespected because she didn't agree with abrideofchrist. She continues to post as though people are misunderstanding her but her posts nearly always come off in a negative tone. Like I said before, I really did not want to post here but I've had enough of this thread. I wish I could block it but I can't.
OnlySunshine Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 Also, to make myself clear, I don't care if a thread is started and I don't like the topic. That's not the point. My main concern is that do NOT appreciate seeing religious Sisters and those consecrated to the Church being disrespected anywhere.
Laurie Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 It's really frustrating to me (and probably others) to come to VS and see this thread continually bumped up. I wanted to disengage from this thread the moment that I saw a religious Sister being disrespected because she didn't agree with abrideofchrist. She continues to post as though people are misunderstanding her but her posts nearly always come off in a negative tone. Like I said before, I really did not want to post here but I've had enough of this thread. I wish I could block it but I can't. I guess that's what I don't understand. I don't understand feeling frustrated that a topic you don't care for is being read by others. For example, I made it clear earlier why I think the discussion here is helpful, and why I think we should all cut each other some slack regarding tone and intention. That's just my opinion. But as soemone who does appreciate this thread and what I'm learning on it, I'd hate to see it axed just because some others don't care for it. I hope Phatmass is large enough for all of us. I would myself simply disengage from a topic I didn't care for. By moving on and reading that which did draw me. BTW, doesn't this site have moderators? Would they intervene if they thought this topic should end?
OnlySunshine Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 I guess that's what I don't understand. I don't understand feeling frustrated that a topic you don't care for is being read by others. For example, I made it clear earlier why I think the discussion here is helpful, and why I think we should all cut each other some slack regarding tone and intention. That's just my opinion. But as soemone who does appreciate this thread and what I'm learning on it, I'd hate to see it axed just because some others don't care for it. I hope Phatmass is large enough for all of us. I would myself simply disengage from a topic I didn't care for. By moving on and reading that which did draw me. BTW, doesn't this site have moderators? Would they intervene if they thought this topic should end? Please read my post above this one. I really wanted to make those aware who are continuing with this discussion that they may need to change their tone. I've already asked a moderator to take a look at this thread but it may take a while. This is my last post here. Again, I did not want to engage in an argument. Thanks for your understanding.
Laurie Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 Please read my post above this one. I really wanted to make those aware who are continuing with this discussion that they may need to change their tone. I've already asked a moderator to take a look at this thread but it may take a while. This is my last post here. Again, I did not want to engage in an argument. Thanks for your understanding. Your latest post hadn't loaded before I started typing to you. Well, then I guess we'll see what the moderators say! I do remember people wanting other threads shut down in the past, and it didn't happen. But I don't know what the fine print rules are here, either. I guess my point is that I am here, I have an opinion, and I don't think there's any problem with the tone. I've already explained why, a few times. So, I'd hope things aren't shut down simply because there is a difference of opinion on what the "tone" should be, particularly in a thread that ABC is herself the author of. As I've said before, someone is always free to start a new thread. No one has to post here or read all of this!
OnlySunshine Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 Your latest post hadn't loaded before I started typing to you. Well, then I guess we'll see what the moderators say! I do remember people wanting other threads shut down in the past, and it didn't happen. But I don't know what the fine print rules are here, either. I guess my point is that I am here, I have an opinion, and I don't think there's any problem with the tone. I've already explained why, a few times. So, I'd hope things aren't shut down simply because there is a difference of opinion on what the "tone" should be, particularly in a thread that ABC is herself the author of. As I've said before, someone is always free to start a new thread. No one has to post here or read all of this! OK, I know I said I wouldn't post again but I want to make myself clear again. I am not talking about you in particular. I understand if you don't understand why I would post here. I may not like the thread and that's OK. My reasoning for posting is simply about the disrespect I've been seeing the last few days. I don't intend to read this thread any further. I'm sorry if my posts offend anyone. Sometimes, though, it helps to have another perspective from the outside when you've been involved in the discussion for too long. Hope this helps. God bless.
abrideofChrist Posted August 3, 2013 Author Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) MaterMisericordiae (Mother of Mercy)- Since I did not receive a PM before you publicly expressed your dismay at the fact that you felt consecrated persons were being disrespected, I take it for granted that you neither refer to me nor need a response from me outside of a PM. So, please excuse me if I return the focus of this thread to its origins and discuss the Bride of Christ. To all others: The reason many of us consecrated persons posted on this thread and continue to post is because we are genuinely interested in what it means to be a Bride of Christ. I was reflecting today upon the beautiful intertwining of the vocations of marriage, holy orders, and consecrated virginity: By her consecration, the virgin is, in a particular way, devoted to fostering the faithful and enduring love of the married. Here is also an analogy with the promise of celibacy of the priest, which also places the priest in a special relationship of example and support to those called to the married life. (Cardinal Burke) It seems to me that one of the attractions of consecrated virginity is its homey family feel. The vocation is spelled out in terms of being a mother; a virgin, and a bride. Even the wording of the Consecration is personal like the phrases at the end, including may [God] "be your comfort in sorrow...protection in the midst of injustice...". God is portrayed as having a very direct Husband role in the life of the consecrated virgin. It is He who defends her, He who sustains her. Earthly marriage helps a virgin to understand what it means to relate to God in an intensely personal way that is not coupled with a very institutional corporate approach to how life is to be lived for a consecrated person. It is likewise striking that the wellbeing of married persons and widows is entrusted to the prayers of the virgin, again emphasizing this homey motif. Edited August 3, 2013 by abrideofChrist
OnlySunshine Posted August 3, 2013 Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) MaterMisericordiae (Mother of Mercy)- Since I did not receive a PM before you publicly expressed your dismay at the fact that you felt consecrated persons were being disrespected, I take it for granted that you neither refer to me nor need a response from me outside of a PM. So, please excuse me if I return the focus of this thread to its origins and discuss the Bride of Christ. To all others: The reason many of us consecrated persons posted on this thread and continue to post is because we are genuinely interested in what it means to be a Bride of Christ. I was reflecting today upon the beautiful intertwining of the vocations of marriage, holy orders, and consecrated virginity: By her consecration, the virgin is, in a particular way, devoted to fostering the faithful and enduring love of the married. Here is also an analogy with the promise of celibacy of the priest, which also places the priest in a special relationship of example and support to those called to the married life. (Cardinal Burke) It seems to me that one of the attractions of consecrated virginity is its homey family feel. The vocation is spelled out in terms of being a mother; a virgin, and a bride. Even the wording of the Consecration is personal like the phrases at the end, including may [God] "be your comfort in sorrow...protection in the midst of injustice...". God is portrayed as having a very direct Husband role in the life of the consecrated virgin. It is He who defends her, He who sustains her. Earthly marriage helps a virgin to understand what it means to relate to God in an intensely personal way that is not coupled with a very institutional corporate approach to how life is to be lived for a consecrated person. It is likewise striking that the wellbeing of married persons and widows is entrusted to the prayers of the virgin, again emphasizing this homey motif. I have my PMs turned off for a good reason - I am too busy to read them. I haven't posted here in several days because I've been incredibly busy preparing to return to school later this month. I am really starting to think that Vocation Station is just not a good place for me to be anymore. This thread started out being informative and respectful but it seemed to turn away from that on July 24th (I decided to go back and read and I saw that I wasn't the only person who thought the tone of this thread was disrespectful). Unfortunately, I think it's time for me to leave Phatmass altogether. I don't feel that posting in an online forum is conducive to discerning my vocation any longer. If anything, I think it hurts it because of personal opinions and misunderstandings I see here. Maybe someday, I'll feel it's OK for me to return but I don't see that happening anytime soon. It really is a shame. I loved participating in Vocation Station for many years. Not so much in last few months, though. Edited August 3, 2013 by MaterMisericordiae
abrideofChrist Posted August 3, 2013 Author Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) Homey motif continued.... The world needs the message that consecrated virgins convey. You show respect for God's will and plan regarding human love, marriage, and the family. You show that chastity is basically respect for this plan and will of God. At the same time you demonstrate that with God's grace it is possible to sacrifice marriage and its attractions for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. (Cardinal Arinze) This I think helps show how closely united the images of family, marriage, and the consecration of virgins are united. Edited August 3, 2013 by abrideofChrist
abrideofChrist Posted August 3, 2013 Author Posted August 3, 2013 MaterMisericordiae, I thought of starting a new thread to let people know you will be leaving Phatmass. I am sorry to hear you are quitting PM but do wish you the very best and know that my prayers go with you. I know you've posted about losing your pet and that is very painful. Again, my condolences. I think of PM as a big family, we are all unique. Some of us are a little rowdier than others but honestly, we all contribute somehow and at the end of each day, we know we're praying for each other. Also, if you're getting ready to head back to school, that is a stressful transition. Vocational discernment is best done when there is not a lot of upheaval in one's life and it sounds like you are suffering a lot. It is very wise for you to take a step back and focus on the things God needs you to take care of right now. Again, I wish you the best of everything, that God's grace be with you and that Our Lady cover you with her mantle.
Ima Lurker Posted August 3, 2013 Posted August 3, 2013 I'd like to interject a question if it's okay. I mostly lurk on PM due to anxiety so please bear with me. It's hard for me to put myself out there. If what you say is true, ABride, then what do you hope to accomplish by posting here? Do you want Nuns to stop using the term "Spouse of Jesus Christ" since by your logic, they are a less perfect image of the title? Are you hoping to redefine the terms? Do you think CVs to be the only people using the term since, by the arguments presented, they are the most perfect image of the Church as Bride? What would this mean for Religious Nuns? And if it's not too much, I know you said you don't think Orders would "die out" but do you think that they might adapt to fit the new definitions giving more virgin women the chance to consecrate themselves this way? Really and truly thank you to everyone who contributed to this post. Such a wealth of information! I had barely heard of the vocation and wanted to learn more but due to time constraints (homeschooling mom), I usually up to my eyeballs in grading papers, etc.. and don't have much time for myself right now. I feel like PM lets me cheat a little! :) And I know that it's not much, but if you see this, MM, I have been praying for you when you post prayer requests. I will continue to pray for you. I would request your prayers as well, if it's okay. God bless!
Lilllabettt Posted August 3, 2013 Posted August 3, 2013 ABC - there is "rowdy" and there is "rude." You have, once again, managed to offend several mild mannered and even-keeled people in this community, some of them long time members. Maybe you are just too unfamiliar with the culture here, or you are familiar but you refuse to assimilate, or you are on the autism spectrum and are oblivious to social cues. Until recently (ahem) VS has not been a rowdy or rude part of the phorum. The culture here is supportive, with everyone bending over backwards to "understand" and show appreciation and respect. For some reason you seem unable to anticipate the pain and upset you will cause when you say things like your suggestion that Nuns are deceptive. Or you are aware and simply don't care. That's a different problem. But either way, I am telling you that your behavior is upsetting a number of people in this community. Please hear that and make adjustments. It is not about being "right" it is about being kind and considerate to other people in a community in which you are still new. Please do not be defensive about whether people should be offended - people are offended.
AnneLine Posted August 3, 2013 Posted August 3, 2013 I've been super busy this week and not even able to get some commitments I had planned done... so I have hesitated to post on this. I don't enjoy arguments, and I really didn't want to get involved. I respect what the predominant posters in this thread have been saying (although I lost the logic and the value of the arguments about 20 pages ago, to be honest....) HOWEVER, I have to agree with what several recent posters have been saying... and this is meant in the most loving way I can think to say it.... This thread curls my toes. Whatever your intent, I don't think it necessarily has been helpful to too many people, and I think it is causing some harm. People have been and are being hurt by it. I realize you may not believe that. I am aware of several people who have been upset by the tone of the discussion, and the kinds of distinctions that have been being made. Several religious sisters have been slighted.. and yes, treated rudely. That is not ok in my book. The same with women who for whatever reason are no longer as 'virginal' as they might wish they were. Bottom line... people are feeling that they are being judged as inferior, whether you realize it or not. One person told me that if she had not already successfully returned to the Church, the wrangling in this thread would have sent her off back far, far away from the Catholic Church, much less consecrated life. If one soul wanders away from a consecrated vocation because of a thread like this, it is a sad thing.... I'm not a theologian... I'm not a canon lawyer, I'm not a nun. I'm a lay woman who is married, and who is a member of a secular order. But I also know that my relationship with God is a bridal one -- NOT as the defining fact of my relationship with Him and/or with the Church... but because that is how He chooses to relate to me. And that is enough for me. As St. Ignatius put it succinctly, "Give me only Your Love... and Your Grace... that's enough for me." God chooses whom He wills to enter into relationship with Him. I don't find it too helpful to be arguing about which form of consecration is more complete or more beautiful... I would say that the heart that is most given over to God is the one that is most pleasing to Him. And that is all I intend to focus on. It is interesting to me that St. John of the Cross' Living Flame of Love... a poem that is about the essential bride-ness of the soul with Christ... was written for a lay woman with children. I liked what Lilllabettt noted about the culture of Vocation Station vis a vis Phatmass as a whole. If you want to wrangle about the spirituality of the Consecrated Virgin lifestyle, it probably belongs under Transmundane Lane.... If you want a debate... put it in the Debate Table. Whether it is good or bad, people try to keep Vocation Station as a 'kinder and gentler' place. That is the predominant culture in this little hamlet of Phatmass. We try not to judge each other, we try to be supportive. We try most of the time to stay AWAY from topics that are argumentative. Sometimes I wonder if that is healthy... but it is what it is. Now I have some stuff I have to get done, but I am lovingly praying for all who have / did / will post here. May we all find God together....
abrideofChrist Posted August 3, 2013 Author Posted August 3, 2013 Actually, Lillebet, I was not referring to myself as being "rowdy". I meant the whole of Phatmass, including the whole "gay" thread that dUst posted. I was also referring to the numerous ad hominem attacks I have been the target of in this thread as "rowdy" behavior. Sponsa Christi clarified that the proper way of reading what I said about deceptive practices is in the material sense not in the culpable sense. I took that as a given because I had assumed that people on a Catholic forum would know the difference in how to read it. Laurie clarified that I even mentioned my own deep pain and the pain other CVs have shared with me when faced with the fact that not all nuns are brides of Christ in the way the Church is.
abrideofChrist Posted August 3, 2013 Author Posted August 3, 2013 Anneline, I am sorry people feel inferior. Perhaps it would have been helpful if they had asked me/us directly whether I was saying they WERE inferior? I personally do not feel inferior to priests even though I will never be a priest. But I do know quite a few people who are confused about the states of life feel very inferior to ordained priests. This is a reason, to my mind, to seek further clarity and discussion.
God's Beloved Posted August 3, 2013 Posted August 3, 2013 Would like to get back to the topic of the thread . The WHO aspect of the Bride of Christ theme: Every Christian whether male or female is a bride of Christ through the concrete but spiritual bond of Baptism . So also persons in religious life – whether men or women- individually or as community- are bride of Christ through a spiritual bond. They consecrate themselves through the profession of vows . This maybe does not enhance their baptismal spousal bond with Christ. What it does enhance is the Symbolism of the Church’s bridal relationship with Christ . [Baptism is a sacrament and religious profession renews the grace of baptism according to the Rite of profession of religious women ]. Canon 607#1 Religious life, as a consecration of the whole person , manifests in the Church the marvellous marriage established by God as a sign of the world to come........ Maybe there can be sharing on other aspects : Why is the Church of Christ called the Bride of Christ. Why is the CV as an individual given this title of the Church. Since every baptized Christian / Catholic is a bride of Christ in different ways , What is the purpose of this relationship in all the different states of life ? It will be wonderful if persons in different states of life share whether they are called to symbolize the bride of Christ imagery in their lives /vocation . If yes, then how do they manifest it , how does this serve the broader picture of the vocation of the Church to be a Sacrament of Salvation in the multi-religious and sometimes atheistic World. How is all this applied to the Post Vatican II era ?
Lil'Nun Posted August 3, 2013 Posted August 3, 2013 I got as far as page 11 - then I stopped. Much as my ego longs for the great grace of being a true and worthy bride of Christ. I am more than happy to be His poorest servant - as long as I can keep close to Him, please him and do his will. I know he loves me - and that is much more than enough for me, even if my ego raises its ugly, selfish head from time to time. :)
Nunsense Posted August 3, 2013 Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) I simply cannot believe the tone of this whole thread - nor can I understand why it is even necessary. It seems to be trying to prove a point in order to make one group of people appear superior in some way to other groups of people. Is this even Christian? The Greatest in the Kingdom At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.…Matt 18:1-3 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all. Mark 9:34-35 When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, 'Give your place to this man,' and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place. "But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher'; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you. "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. Lk 14:8-11 Edited August 3, 2013 by nunsense
beatitude Posted August 3, 2013 Posted August 3, 2013 I agree with Nunsense. Whenever there is a discussion on Phatmass between consecrated virgins, the result always seems to be 20+ pages of nit-picking and quibbling that takes on an increasingly sour and even unkind tone. No doubt someone will wish to tell me that this isn't nit-picking, it's discussion of vitally important things that I just don't have the knowledge to understand, and it's crucial that all the misconceptions be cleared up. But the only thing that ever seems to become clear in these discussions is an embarrassing lack of charity and compassion. It's a flimsy excuse for people to say that they weren't really being mean-spirited, other people just don't understand their special complex super-scholarly language, not when they have made snarky statements like "My bad. I assumed you had an Internet connection and could look up these documents for yourself!" to a person who is disagreeing with them. There is nothing scholarly or difficult to understand about that kind of behaviour: it's just passive-aggressive and nasty. I know someone in real life who is interested in becoming a CV. I think it says something very sad that I would not feel comfortable directing her to Phatmass for support.
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