Difference In Vows

[MarysLittleFlower]

Hello,

It was brought up in another thread how Contemplative nuns make vows differently than Sisters from Active orders. I hope I understood correctly. I was wondering what the difference is?

Also, I asked this in another thread but just in case - does anyone know if nuns in communities with the Latin Mass, take vows using another Rite (like a pre-VII Rite) and is there any website that has the words?

thanks!

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='MarysLittleFlower' timestamp='1344202244' post='2463082']
Hello,

It was brought up in another thread how Contemplative nuns make vows differently than Sisters from Active orders. I hope I understood correctly. I was wondering what the difference is?

Also, I asked this in another thread but just in case - does anyone know if nuns in communities with the Latin Mass, take vows using another Rite (like a pre-VII Rite) and is there any website that has the words?

thanks!
[/quote]

Sr. Julie explained it very well here:

[url="http://anunslife.org/resources/sister-or-nun/"]What is the difference between a 'nun' and a 'Sister'?[/url]

[quote]
As you might have noticed, there is a difference in the type of vows, solemn vs. simple. The [i]New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law [/i]explains the distinction this way:[indent]
“The older religious orders (monastic, canon regulars, mendicants, Jesuits) have perpetual solemn vows, and the more recent apostolic congregations have perpetual simple vows. The chief juridical difference between the two is that religious who profess a solemn vow of poverty renounce ownership of all their temporal goods, whereas religious who profess a simple vow of poverty have a right to retain ownership of their patrimony (an estate, endowment or anything inherited from one’s parents or ancestors) but must give up its use and any revenue.”[/indent]
[/quote][indent]
[/indent]

[OnlySunshine]

There is more on this subject here:

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=444723&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu="]Solemn Vows vs Simple Vows[/url]

The best way to describe it is that a Sister can take simple vows and be dispensed from them by the local ordinary (in cases where the congregation is of diocesan rite) or a papal indult. If she was to get married, the act would be illicit but valid. However, if one took solemn vows, which are meant to be forever, it would render marriage not only illicit but invalid.

Also, simple vows allow property ownership but solemn vows do not. Most of the time (if not all), cloistered communities such as Dominican nuns take solemn vows whereas their active counterparts such as the DSMMEs take simple vows.

Edited August 5, 2012 by MaterMisericordiae

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thanks, that's very informative! what about active-contemplative orders like the Sisters of Life? (if they are indeed active-contemplative..)

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='MarysLittleFlower' timestamp='1344206183' post='2463121']
Thanks, that's very informative! what about active-contemplative orders like the Sisters of Life? (if they are indeed active-contemplative..)
[/quote]

Active/contemplative orders like the Sisters of Life take simple vows, as well.

[mantellata]

Quick addendum. "Taking vows" is not exactly correct.... you "make vows". It's an action on the part of the candidate who makes them. (I'll have to differ to Sr. Mary Catharine on the distinction of "making profession") After the vows are made to God then the bishop consecrates the Sister.

And since we have been also talking about Consecrated Virgins lately - I imagine this would be another distinction for them -- that they [i]receive[/i]​ consecration - the action being wholly on the part of the Church with the candidate being the recipient.

[Indwelling Trinity]

Technically after Vatican II solemn vows no longer exist. However "Orders" with that practice do have permission to continue their use.

[abrideofChrist]

All finally professed sisters who take vows must have their vows dispensed before marriage or the marriage is invalid. There are no longer distinctions between solemn and simple vows when it comes to marriage.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1344214985' post='2463215']
Technically after Vatican II solemn vows no longer exist. However "Orders" with that practice do have permission to continue their use.
[/quote]
I remember Sr. Mary Catharine once saying they do still exist. Perhaps things are different now regarding marriage, as posted above, but I think there is still the distinction regarding the owning of property. I [i]think[/i] also Solemn Vows can only be dispensed by the Holy Father, while Simple Vows can be dispensed by a bishop. Maybe Sr. MC will see this and chime in here. She usually points out this is the difference between Dominican Sisters and Dominican Nuns (not saying one is better than the other of course!) But for instance .. there are some cloistered Dominican Sisters that do not have Solemn Vows, like the one who entered Summit from another cloistered Dominican community, who had professed Perpetual Simple Vows already .. she went through some formation and made her Solemn Profession in the Order of Preachers, thus becoming a Dominican Nun.

So anyway, I think they do still exist in the Church. They are still mentioned in the current Code of Canon Law, though with nothing near the details as the 1917 Code. Maybe more information about them is in another document .. ?

1983 Code (current): [url="http://www.jgray.org/codes/cic83eng.html"]http://www.jgray.org...s/cic83eng.html[/url]

Can. 1192 §1. A vow is public if a legitimate superior accepts it in the name of the Church; otherwise, it is private.
§2. [b]A vow is solemn if the Church has recognized it as such; otherwise, it is simple.[/b]
§3. A vow is personal if the person making the vow promises an action; real if the person making the vow promises some thing; mixed if it shares the nature of a personal and a real vow.

1917 Code (can't find English online): [url="http://www.jgray.org/codes/1917CIC.txt"]http://www.jgray.org/codes/1917CIC.txt[/url] (search "votorum sollemnium")

p.s. Indwelling, I'm 100% sure you already know this and what is bolded above .. but just pointing it out for others. And that may very well be right what you said about Orders with that practice being able to continue their use. I guess what I am saying is, if this is so then they do still exist, especially with them still being named as different things in the current code. Now to learn more about their distinctions ..

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1344214985' post='2463215']
Technically after Vatican II solemn vows no longer exist. However "Orders" with that practice do have permission to continue their use.
[/quote]

How can they no longer exist yet still be permitted for certain Orders to use? You might have meant that, currently, they are only to be used with the Holy See's permission.

[mantellata]

Maybe if we post Sr. Mary Catharine's name here enough she will show up and help clarify things?

Edited August 10, 2012 by mantellata

[OnlySunshine]

Help, Sr. Mary Catharine! We need you!

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

Yes, Solemn vows for religious institutes still exists but this is spelled out in the constitutions not in canon law.
Only the Holy See can dispense from the obligations of solemn profession. For some insitutes it is either the Bishop or even the major superior and council that may dispense from simple vows.

Some communities with simple vows make a total renunciation of property which is a new thing in the 83 Code. However, it is only with solemn vows that one not only renunces property but the RIGHT to ownership.

In either simple or solemn vows an attempted marriage is invalid.

Indwelling Trinity is a little confused as solemn vows still do exist and it had nothing to do with Vat II but the Code of Canon Law which changed in 1983. It used to be spelled out in the code and now except for mentioning that there is a distinction between simple and solmen vows (and this isn't even in the section on religious life) there is no mention and is left up to the constitutions.

It makes for some confusion even with canon lawyers! I guess it keeps them in business! :-)

[TheresaThoma]

Thanks Sr. Mary Catherine.
I guess we do have to keep those Canon lawyers busy somehow!

[mantellata]

I knew that Sr. Mary Catharine would come to the rescue and straighten us all out!

Many thanks!!!!!

[krissylou]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1344203513' post='2463097']
There is more on this subject here:

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=444723&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu="]Solemn Vows vs Simple Vows[/url]

The best way to describe it is that a Sister can take simple vows and be dispensed from them by the local ordinary (in cases where the congregation is of diocesan rite) or a papal indult. If she was to get married, the act would be illicit but valid. However, if one took solemn vows, which are meant to be forever, it would render marriage not only illicit but invalid.

Also, simple vows allow property ownership but solemn vows do not. Most of the time (if not all), cloistered communities such as Dominican nuns take solemn vows whereas their active counterparts such as the DSMMEs take simple vows.
[/quote]

I have been informed by what I consider to be a reliable source that the part about marriage used to be the case, but is no longer. At this point it is possible (unfortunate but possible) for solemn vows to be dispensed as well as simple vows. (And of course most sisters in 'simple vows' take them very seriously and don't have 'oh well this could be dispensed with so no biggie' in the back of their minds.)

The part about property is the difference. So. For instance. If I were a sister in simple vows I could still get an inheritance from my parents and have one of my sisters manage it. If I were in solemn vows that wouldn't fly. Either my portion goes straight to the community, or parents cut me out of their will and give everything to my sisters. BUT if I were an active sister in simple vows it could be 'mine' but I couldn't benefit from the revenues, nor could I tell my administrator sister how to manage it, not at all. That's not a great situation for anyone. Awkward! So, lots of times people in simple vows essentially live as if they were in solemn when it comes to property. It may only be a significant difference for canon law geeks.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1345608718' post='2471778']
The part about property is the difference. So. For instance. If I were a sister in simple vows I could still get an inheritance from my parents and have one of my sisters manage it. If I were in solemn vows that wouldn't fly. Either my portion goes straight to the community, or parents cut me out of their will and give everything to my sisters. BUT if I were an active sister in simple vows it could be 'mine' but I couldn't benefit from the revenues, nor could I tell my administrator sister how to manage it, not at all. That's not a great situation for anyone. Awkward! So, lots of times people in simple vows essentially live as if they were in solemn when it comes to property. It may only be a significant difference for canon law geeks.
[/quote]

A nun once said that her parents were so upset that they could not leave anything for her in her name on their will that they decided to anyway. I think she just forwarded it to the community under obedience, but her parents made that more confusing than it had to be!

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

For the most part living simple and solemn vows isn't really different. However, ownership of goods is a natural right and solemn profession is saying that even that I give to you, Jesus, so that you will take care of me in your loving providence. Most of us come in to religious life with NOTHING so we don't think of it too much. But what we do take in with us is wanting to determine many little things in our lives. That is really where poverty comes in.

I remember in the novitiate my aunt giving me a lovely basket of soaps(!!!) for Christmas. Immediately I asked my novice mistress if I could share them with the others in the novitiate. Guess what? She said NO! I was to use them and enjoy them as a gift from God. She felt that my motive wasn't pure and that I was sharing them because I felt guilty using them and that I "should" share. It was a very good lesson for me....

One sister's parents put in their will that the monastery in which their daughter resided in at the time of their deaths would receive a certain amount. This kept it from going to sister and having to pay taxes. Civil law recognizes renouning goods we have but they sure don't get that I can't own anything! This way the community benefits.

I am soooo happy not to own anything...it is soo freeing!

[EmilyAnn]

I read somewhere that there's a difference in the obligation to pray the Divine Office between solemn vows and simple vows. Is this right?

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Sr. Mary Catharine' timestamp='1345641262' post='2471925']
For the most part living simple and solemn vows isn't really different. However, ownership of goods is a natural right and solemn profession is saying that even that I give to you, Jesus, so that you will take care of me in your loving providence. Most of us come in to religious life with NOTHING so we don't think of it too much. But what we do take in with us is wanting to determine many little things in our lives. That is really where poverty comes in.

I remember in the novitiate my aunt giving me a lovely basket of soaps(!!!) for Christmas. Immediately I asked my novice mistress if I could share them with the others in the novitiate. Guess what? She said NO! I was to use them and enjoy them as a gift from God. She felt that my motive wasn't pure and that I was sharing them because I felt guilty using them and that I "should" share. It was a very good lesson for me....

One sister's parents put in their will that the monastery in which their daughter resided in at the time of their deaths would receive a certain amount. This kept it from going to sister and having to pay taxes. Civil law recognizes renouning goods we have but they sure don't get that I can't own anything! This way the community benefits.

I am soooo happy not to own anything...it is soo freeing!
[/quote]
Thanks for pointing out the tax thing. My grandfather keeps asking about how an inheritance would work in regards to my sister (a Nashville Dominican). I will have to be sure to mention the tax side of it to him.