Homily: Marriage Is Good, But Celibacy Is Better

[BarbTherese]

You know, in marriage, it’s better, objectively speaking, to have children rather than to not have them. One of the goods of marriage is the procreation and the raising of children.

 

 

I thought your points were well raised also, Laurie

 

Some people are not able to have children. Their vocations are beautiful and full as husband and wife without children. They can gain great graces by their inability to have children and they can build up the Church magnificently by carrying that cross as best they can. Subjectively, God carries out His perfect plan in their marriage without their having been blessed with children.

 

This is what I had been trying to get across.  The superiority of God's Will in all things - and that The Cross and suffering is central to our lives and at the heart of our Faith.  Suffering can be made holy and redemptive, depending on how it is borne.  Any kind of suffering in life whatsoever.

But what if a wife who could not have children resented women who could? What if her attitude was, you all think you are so wonderful because it is objectively better for children to result from a marriage! You think you are better than me because you have been given this objective blessing that I have not been given!

 

I have a saying for myself "I can't stop others from thinking, nor change what they think very often".  If a woman, who was unable to have children. thought as you indicate above.  She would need, I would think, to be instructed/informed further on the great mystery of God's Will in life and the centrality of The Cross in our Catholic spirituality.

Would that be the right response to the Church’s teaching about the great good that children are? Would that be the right response to the Church’s teaching that, objectively, marriage is ordered towards the procreation and raising of children?

 

 

No, it would not be the correct attitude and perspective on particular circumstances of others.  Circumstances too come about through God's Divine Providence or His Will.

This is what I meant when I said in a post that ego is alive and well in The Church.  All too often it is about "me" and not what God Wills and what He does provide - in both a negative and positive sense i.e. the common good.

A woman walking around with 4 beautiful children should not have to defend herself against that type of criticism. It shouldn’t be assumed that because she has, objectively, been given a great blessing that she is therefore haughty and superior.

 

 

Ideally, she should not have to defend herself and ideally would not.  But then life is sometimes not fair at all (circumstances come about through God's Divine Providence and very often complete mystery).

 

I don't think that "superior/inferior" belong in the language of spirituality applied to persons on the subjective level.  Superior/inferior might be helpful to theologians in their quite objective considerations, but sometimes theological understandings can be misunderstood.  I don't think however that any theologian anywhere would dispute the absolute superiority (transcended by nothing) of The Will of God.  God choose this person for this way of life and another for a different way of life.  The superiority of God's Will is absolute, while there is a quite valid and understandable scale of superiority re the celibate and non-celibate states and for reasons that seem to be quite logical and reasonable on an objective theological scale.

Edited August 23, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Barbara, I agree with your replies! :) nothing to debate about haha :P

 

A welcome breath of fresh air huh, MLF :)

I've been saying the same thing right throughout all the threads and my posts relating to this subject.  Perhaps what I have been writing has been misunderstood and easily done.

[abrideofChrist]

God's will is superior, the question is how to live it when you choose the wrong vocation to which you were not called.  This is what St. Alphonsus and the other Doctors of the Church warn about.  They say it can be difficult or even impossible to live in a vocation God didn't design you to be in.  The priest I mentioned earlier chose the priesthood ONLY because it was "superior" and apparently with no thought as to whether HE was called.  If person A didn't have a vocation to consecrated life, God might grant her barely enough grace to live through with her commitment, whereas He would have showered her with abundant graces for living out marriage.  It's not that she can't get holy, but that it is tougher because she didn't have the divine gift to begin with.

[BarbTherese]

God's will is superior, the question is how to live it when you choose the wrong vocation to which you were not called.  This is what St. Alphonsus and the other Doctors of the Church warn about.  They say it can be difficult or even impossible to live in a vocation God didn't design you to be in.  The priest I mentioned earlier chose the priesthood ONLY because it was "superior" and apparently with no thought as to whether HE was called.  If person A didn't have a vocation to consecrated life, God might grant her barely enough grace to live through with her commitment, whereas He would have showered her with abundant graces for living out marriage.  It's not that she can't get holy, but that it is tougher because she didn't have the divine gift to begin with.

 

Hi again BoC.

I don't think that the process of finding oneself in the wrong vocation, or choosing the wrong vocation, is a simple straightforward always process of just choosing deliberately the wrong vocation in the first place.  There is a vast difference morally between the person who chooses the wrong vocation quite deliberately, and the one who does so without fully realizing what they are doing, or even realizing at all that they are taking up the wrong vocation.

            Your post does underscore thegreat importance of discernment - and that it is a serious journey that every Catholic adult, on reaching adult stage, must undertake: "How is The Lord asking me to spend the rest of my life?"  This is a question every adult Catholic must ask - certainly at the outset of adulthood (some ask earlier, some even know the answer earlier).  Sometimes it is a question asked more than once in a lifetime's pilgrimage here.

 

I think that on Phatmass, the discernment journey is taken very seriously indeed - and very often excellent advice is conveyed and often from members, or ex members, of religious orders themselves.  Hence speaking from experience.

 

Refer re the above to my post here : http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/130790-homily-marriage-is-good-but-celibacy-is-better/page-10#entry2617623

 

And to an excellent work by Josef Bolin (available online here http://www.pathsoflove.com/paths-of-love-details.html ).  I actually bought this book quite a few years ago and still have it.

 

 Biography J Bolin : http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/about-paths-of-love/  

 

The book did set me out on a search to research what vocation did mean, what The Church had to state - and the discernment journey generally.  I found it an excellent work in that it quotes the saints, Doctors of The Church and contemporary Popes especially - and then breaks things down into understandable terms today.

[BarbTherese]

God's will is superior, the question is how to live it when you choose the wrong vocation to which you were not called

 

 

 

There is nothing whatsoever The Good Lord will not forgive - and in His Forgiving is all the Graces necessary to holiness restored.  If I should find that I am in the wrong vocation, then I approach The Sacrament of Reconciliation.  And were it me, I would also be seeking sound spiritual direction.  Finding oneself in the wrong vocation (not by deliberate choice) is a truly heart rending experience, I know, and it may take a journey (ideally with spiritual direction ) to resolve the whole issue psychologically and spiritually.  One needs a positive attitude and perspective on suffering and The Cross, which is at the heart and soul of our Catholic Faith.

 

If one finds oneself in the position of being in the wrong vocation, the situation cannot be walked around, over or under - it is a situation that one must go through and work through, knowing that The Lord is with one.

 

But we should never ever feel, nor proclaim, that The Lord withholds His Graces from a sincere and repentant heart (not stating that you are doing this BoC!).  We should never ever be made to feel that Divine Providence (The Lord's forever providing for our holiness) has abandoned us, no matter how terrible our failure followed by sincere repentance and sorrow.

 

Finding oneself in the wrong vocation for whatever reason is most often a way of suffering.  It is not the way of abandonment.  It is The Cross in one's life, taking possibly a form one had never anticipated for sure.

[KnightofChrist]

The Church has firmly stated beyond question and in numerous places that the celibate state is theologically superior to the non celibate state. 
Where some can come seem to come unstuck and get the wrong understanding is in not grasping that the statements are "objective theological statements" only.

What do you mean by "objective theological statements only"? Anything the Church teaches will be theological, any belief about God is also going to be theological. All sides to this debate is theological. So I don't quite grasp why the distinction is being made for the call of God to religious life.

I don't think anyone contests to date (though I am unsure), the objective theological understanding of The Church re celibacy as superior theologically.
In the scale of things, however, nothing can be theologically superior to the Will of God.

 

I again don't quite understand. The call of God to a certain vocation is the will of God. If one is called by God to religious life this call to religious life is always going to be a higher calling than other calls of God to vocations like marriage.

And in the area of vocation we are free to choose, providing we have the God given necessary qualities/qualifications for whatever vocation we might be choosing.  Some do enter a vocation seemingly without the necessary qualities - but they develop over time and the person perseveres in the vocation to their spiritual profit.  Grace of God.  Others enter a vocation seeming to have the necessary qualities - as the journey in the way of life unfolds, this proves not to be so and they leave.

It may be possible that we can have more than one call from God, but I don't know if saying that we choose our vocation conveys clearly enough what is a call from God. God chooses our vocation, we choose to take it up or not. If someone does get more than one call, say the call to Religious life and the call to marriage, the call to religious life will always be higher than any other call. This of course does not make the person being called superior in anyway, but the call is higher than all other calls. It is a call of God to a more intimate union with God. The married marry their beloveds and share their devotion to their beloved with God, Religious such as priest marry the Church, or for sisters they marry Christ and give complete devotion to God. The call to Religious life is a higher calling because it is a more intimate relationship with God.

I'm not sure we even disagree. I'm really just trying to understand your point of view better as I do not fully understand it.

[God's Beloved]

I know what you mean about the "Bad Gateway" thing... it kept showing up for me too and then I end up with double posts ;)

 

 

Sometimes simply by clicking the <---   Back button on the "browser" , the previous page comes back with whatever you have typed !

[God's Beloved]

 I just thought about the New kind of vocations to consecrated life in which married couples together consecrate themselves to God and live the evangelical counsels [ including Chastity] according to their married vocation.

 

e.g. Couples for Christ !?

[God's Beloved]

There are also monasteries in some parts of the world where couples live an ascetic lifestyle  , usually in their old age.

[BarbTherese]

Thank you for asking KoC because the question of superiority on the theological level has caused confusion.  And I think that this has come about because it was not being understood that the highest on a theological scale is The Will of God.  Our vocations were only ever invitations, but invitation in a function of God's Will.

What does come out very strong in this thread and largely due to what Bride of Christ contributed is the very great importance of the discerning process.  It is a very important, vital, part of our journey and adult years:  "What is God's Will for me?"  And it is a question we continually pose to ourselves (although the question in relation to vocation might be settled).  God's Will continues to unfold in the minutes and hours of our day.

 

BarbaraTherese, on 17 Aug 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

The Church has firmly stated beyond question and in numerous places that the celibate state is theologically superior to the non celibate state. 
Where some can come seem to come unstuck and get the wrong understanding is in not grasping that the statements are "objective theological statements" only.

What do you mean by "objective theological statements only"? Anything the Church teaches will be theological, any belief about God is also going to be theological. All sides to this debate is theological. So I don't quite grasp why the distinction is being made for the call of God to religious life.

 

It stands to reason in my book that the celibate life FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM is superior to married life, simply because as St Paul tells us, the celibate person is intent on how to please God, the married couple are intent on how to please each other as a means of serving God.  And you say this in other words further on.

 

BarbaraTherese, on 17 Aug 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

I don't think anyone contests to date (though I am unsure), the objective theological understanding of The Church re celibacy as superior theologically.
In the scale of things, however, nothing can be theologically superior to the Will of God.

 

I again don't quite understand. The call of God to a certain vocation is the will of God. If one is called by God to religious life this call to religious life is always going to be a higher calling than other calls of God to vocations like marriage.

 

Precisely what I have been saying.  Nothing is higher theologically than the Will of God; however it remains a truth which The Church proclaims as doctrine that on the theological scale celibacy for the sake of The Kingdom is higher than marriage - and this does make logical sense to me.  In other words on a theological scale it reads

 

1 - Will of God

2 - Celibacy for the sake of The Kingdom

3 - Marriage

 

Therefore, if God (His Will) calls me to marriage, then He is calling me to an inferior state of life, but in embracing God's Will for my life, I have embraced what is most superior.

BarbaraTherese, on 17 Aug 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

And in the area of vocation we are free to choose, providing we have the God given necessary qualities/qualifications for whatever vocation we might be choosing.  Some do enter a vocation seemingly without the necessary qualities - but they develop over time and the person perseveres in the vocation to their spiritual profit.  Grace of God.  Others enter a vocation seeming to have the necessary qualities - as the journey in the way of life unfolds, this proves not to be so and they leave.

It may be possible that we can have more than one call from God, but I don't know if saying that we choose our vocation conveys clearly enough what is a call from God. God chooses our vocation, we choose to take it up or not. If someone does get more than one call, say the call to Religious life and the call to marriage, the call to religious life will always be higher than any other call. This of course does not make the person being called superior in anyway, but the call is higher than all other calls. It is a call of God to a more intimate union with God. The married marry their beloveds and share their devotion to their beloved with God, Religious such as priest marry the Church, or for sisters they marry Christ and give complete devotion to God. The call to Religious life is a higher calling because it is a more intimate relationship with God.

I'm not sure we even disagree. I'm really just trying to understand your point of view better as I do not fully understand it.

 

 

 

We do agree.  Nothing complex to understand I don’t think but this can be the case with the one responding. Hence, if I am not clear, keep asking and I will keep trying to clarify what I am trying to state. :)

[BarbTherese]

Sometimes simply by clicking the <---   Back button on the "browser" , the previous page comes back with whatever you have typed !

 

Thanks GB.:)  For some reason, what you suggest sometimes only wont work for me.  I have to remember to copy my post prior to attempting to post so that I wont loose it altogether.

[BarbTherese]

 I just thought about the New kind of vocations to consecrated life in which married couples together consecrate themselves to God and live the evangelical counsels [ including Chastity] according to their married vocation.

 

e.g. Couples for Christ !?

 

 I don't know anything about "Couples for Christ". Do you mean that married couples live out marital chastity also poverty and obedience in accordance with a rule of life?  Does the organisation have a Rule of LIfe, or does each couple write their own?

We are all called to the evangelical counsels whether married or not.  How the counsels are determined (statutes I guess) is according to our own vocation and states in life, circumstances.

[BarbTherese]

There are also monasteries in some parts of the world where couples live an ascetic lifestyle  , usually in their old age.

 

Never heard of this.  But then I am in Australia and really opportunities here in South Australia where religious and consecrated life generally are concerned are very limited indeed.  There are some organisations in other states, but I feel if one joins a community then one needs to have regular contact.  For some travelling between states may not be an expensive item - for me it really is.  I am regarded as below poverty level.

[LouisvilleFan]

 I just thought about the New kind of vocations to consecrated life in which married couples together consecrate themselves to God and live the evangelical counsels [ including Chastity] according to their married vocation.

 

e.g. Couples for Christ !?

 

Nothing new under the sun. It wasn't so uncommon in the 11th and 12th centuries.

 

Re: Marriage and Celibacy, I fear that using the overly simplistic terms "good" and "better" leads people who earnestly want to give their all to Christ to pressure themselves toward a vocation that requires celibacy. We should add: "Following God's calling is best." In other words, pray and listen, and be thankful for your vocation, whatever it is.