Yaatee Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/03/us/katy-perry-allies-with-los-angeles-archdiocese-over-property-sale.html?emc=edit_tnt_20150702&nlid=11780985&tntemail0=y The remnant of the Sisters of the Immaculate Heart of Mary now consist of 5 aging members, who are selling their magnificent mother house and grounds, possibly to Katy Perry. This order, filled with some of the most intelligent and talented sisters in the Catholic Church, taught in a number of schools and colleges in an around Los Angeles. However, they was attacked by Cardinal McIntyre in 1968 for wanting to modernize their (beautiful, but elaborate) habit and constitutions. After long negotiations, he demanded that the community comply and retain its traditional ways and habit, or he would negate its status as a religious order in the diocese. Most of the sisters left, leaving only a minority in the order. The cardinal who succeeded McIntyre asked the sisters who had departed to return to teach in the schools; they were not able to for a number of reasons. The departing sisters formed a lay community and retained many of their schools and colleges which were not under diocesan control. It later formed an ecumenical community, and gradually shed direct control of its institutions. The remaining sisters, which were sufficient in number to rebuild the sisterhood--never did. https://www.google.com/search?q=habit+images+immaculate+heart+of+mary&tbm=isch&imgil=_3XGLkhLqF7YTM%3A%3BhFmt9MbipCZKaM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.flickr.com%252Fphotos%252F65359853%2540N00%252F4847320567&source=iu&pf=m&fir=_3XGLkhLqF7YTM%3A%2ChFmt9MbipCZKaM%2C_&biw=1132&bih=606&usg=__oxeCX3bCrX564A1ad8Ej46GnDAE%3D&ved=0CC4Qyjc&ei=neCVVbvRMsSfsAXYyaPQDQ#imgrc=_3XGLkhLqF7YTM%3A&usg=__oxeCX3bCrX564A1ad8Ej46GnDAE%3D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Katy Perry? That's strange... I don't think its really fair to say the Cardinal was attacking them though... He probably had a good reason to ask this... Just as the Church today has a good reason to examine orders that are more modernized or more liberal in views. I don't know what these Sisters wanted to do exactly.... However in the examples of the Saints they were extremely obedient like St Padre Pio who wasn't allowed to say Mass or confess, and St Louis De Montfort who was told to dismantle a large Calvary he had built. They were opposed for good things even yet still complied... Here it sounds like the Cardinal just wanted to preserve tradition, I wouldn't make him into a "bad guy" he could have been right! Now there is so much liberalism as a result of these changes. Don't know about these Sisters. But the more liberal orders aren't getting many vocations. Its sad this happened to this community but i wonder what happened. Religious should firstly be faithful and humble and obedient, I don't know what this community is like. It sounds like there was some interior division maybe?? I don't know .. But it doesn't sound to me like the Cardinal was asking for something wrong or unreasonable... Edited July 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 He was demanding it. That was the problem. And gave them a strict deadline. If you want to learn more, there is a lot written on this subject on the web, which I don't want to go into now. The order is dying in the US, where once it was thriving. True of many other communities and it might have happened anyway. No other cardinal/archbishop that I know of has done this. Only a few women's communities in the US are really thriving. Most, but not all, have habits, full or modified, or uniforms of some sort. Others are attracting a trickle of final professions--that's all that really counts. The "updated" orders are greatly diminished, but are merging and still attracting vocations, usually older women with a lot of education. They will always still be around. I think that the effective closing of the papal commission and the new encyclical will give them a real shot in the arm. It will be interesting to see how the numbers of sisters bottom out in the US and what the final breakdown is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I don't know what happened with the situation or anything about the Cardinal, but I think in general a superior has the right to demand something if its for the good of the faith (not something against the faith or to weaken it and I don't mean out of a personal dislike). Anyway I don't know what happened. Regarding orders, it seems that most young women are entering more traditional orders which makes sense to me because they also emphasise spirituality - the difficulty with the really liberalised orders is they emphasis social action. But I'm not thinking of being a nun to do social action, but to love Christ. Any apostolate should come from an interior life to have any real strength... The Saints who did the most change in the world were very contemplative not only active. Traditional orders emphasize that and make the main thing belonging to Christ, which is what I think attracts people. If I looked up an order and they said their main idea is the apostolate, that is a red flag to me... The main thing for a religious is not what they do, but Christ crucified. That is the only way to become a saint IMO. Not commenting on the order you mentioned since I never looked them up, but in general I think that's why traditional orders get more vocations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax17 Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 This was the community of the wonderful artist Sister Mary Corita Kent. http://www.corita.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 This was the community of the wonderful artist Sister Mary Corita Kent. http://www.corita.org/ Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 I don't know what happened with the situation or anything about the Cardinal, but I think in general a superior has the right to demand something if its for the good of the faith (not something against the faith or to weaken it and I don't mean out of a personal dislike). Anyway I don't know what happened. Regarding orders, it seems that most young women are entering more traditional orders which makes sense to me because they also emphasise spirituality - the difficulty with the really liberalised orders is they emphasis social action. But I'm not thinking of being a nun to do social action, but to love Christ. Any apostolate should come from an interior life to have any real strength... The Saints who did the most change in the world were very contemplative not only active. Traditional orders emphasize that and make the main thing belonging to Christ, which is what I think attracts people. If I looked up an order and they said their main idea is the apostolate, that is a red flag to me... The main thing for a religious is not what they do, but Christ crucified. That is the only way to become a saint IMO. Not commenting on the order you mentioned since I never looked them up, but in general I think that's why traditional orders get more vocations As a matter of fact, I think that there is a great deal of spirituality in the so-called "updated" orders (for want of a better word). They are not just about social action at all; otherwise, they would have been gone long ago. Many of these "updated" communities, which means they have no long, full starched habit, though many wear conservative clothes, which might identify them as nuns, in addition to their emblems, are recognizably Benedictine, Dominican and Franciscan, with appropriate emphasis on the divine office, preaching, and simplicity respectively. It was their spirituality which persuaded the papal commission to save face and bow out gracefully (which is what they did). Their apostolates do come from their interior lives and focus on Christ. They could not do what they do otherwise. There were just too many of them, both in number of communities and absolute numbers, probably the highest in human history. It was a peak in religious life in the west, and then came along Vatican II and major sociological shifts in American and European life, especially for women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nunsuch Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 The Cardinal was not their "superior." They were a pontifical community. However, many of their institutions were in his archdiocese. The best book on the subject of what happened is this one: http://www.amazon.com/Witness-Integrity-Immaculate-Community-California/dp/0814627706/ While it is clearly told from the sisters' point of view (meaning those who resisted the pressures that the Cardinal was putting on them), it contains a very large number of primary documents that people can read for themselves, and this is extensively footnoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I'm not saying there's no good or no good Sisters in these communities... I'm talking about the really really liberal ones in their outlook. Not just change of dress. Though I love the traditional approach and would discern with a more traditional order, and I think the habit is very symbolic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nunsuch Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 MLF, that is why there are so many *different* communities. It would be hard to call a community without a habit "very liberal" without more than that to go on, since the vast majority of sisters, at least in the US, do not wear habits. Are they all "very liberal"? I don't think so--and I realize that is not what you are saying. But for those who prefer habits, there are communities who wear them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Marie Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 MLF, I think it might benefit you to re read some of what you what you wrote here and the very charitable responses you just received. When I read your first post my first feeling was frustration. I assume you haven't been in religious life and so I ask that you consider for a moment that your reading of the lives of the saints might not trump the thousands of years of experience real religious women have had in the communities you characterize as being focused on social action instead of spirituality, ministry instead of contemplation, and not focusing on Christ crucified. A closer reading of the Gospel (the life of Christ we aspire to follow) shows you a Jesus who heals the sick, teaches the people, feeds the crowds, changes water into wine, dined with His dear friends, and died so that we might live. These actions flowed from his deep relationship with the father and he never ignored the human needs of those he came to save. The lives of the saints were lived in a different time and they can inspire and teach us but different times call for different saints! Jesus is timeless. The Gospel is timeless. The saints, to be honored, are not to be copy and pasted into our times. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever!" As an apostolic religious I can tell you that I live with extraordinary women of the Gospel and exemplary witnesses to the love of Jesus. I love them deeply for it and no external demands from those outside the religious life would make them better religious. We work hard at it and we discuss with one another how to grow. When I see the 85 year old sister in my house, still in full time ministry, praying her stations at 4 in the morning before going to morning prayer and mass and then a full day of work - I see a saint. When I watch another cook dinner for us in between her sick calls and funeral planning I see another. Please consider that the compartments you've created to label religious do not speak the truth of who we are and that your books are no substitute for living this gift of religious life. I wish life was so black and white and neat but it isn't. We are not perfect but we are certainly devoted to Jesus and his people. Consider that the statements you just made were about real women, like the 85 year old with whom I live, have given their lives completely for Him and that that gift matters and means something. I hope for your sake that you can appreciate the beauty of religious life in its fullness as it is a gift not just for those of us who live it but for others as well. I pray for all the best for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Marie Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Double post... Sorry! Edited July 3, 2015 by Sister Marie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Sister Marie, I'm sorry that I have caused you to feel frustrated. Please forgive me. However as I have tried to say I did not mean orders without habits or especially more active orders or even any particular order with a name. I meant that IF an order says its all about active work that would bother bother me, rather than an order that directly and explicitly links the same active work to prayer and God. I'm not against active work at all and if done in obedience its like prayer. However I read and was taught that active work must come from an interior life not in isolation. If a Sister does active work for Jesus that's great. I meant IF its more of a job to her that's not ideal. But I'm not saying about any particular Sisters cause I can't know that. I meant hypothetically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I was actually taught this concept in an apostolate I'm part of... It was taught to make our work more fruitful. Its also something from a book by Fr Thomas Dubay. Its not an outdated concept I believe. But I didn't mean any particular order. I meant a hypothetical order that doesn't just do active work but where prayer is not given importance. I'm not saying that's all non habited orders. I actually meant extreme near heretical ones with non Christian ideas. And hypothetical ones anyway. Sorry for the lack of clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Marie Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 You don't need to say sorry and my frustration is a valid feeling that I'm choosing to acknowledge out loud in the hope that it might add to your perspective of things. I didn't say it to make you feel bad but to let you know how you might be perceived and how others might feel in response to that. I have to be honest in saying that I don't know of any religious or communities that are the way you say they are... I haven't met them but you seem to think they exist so I guess I just don't understand where your perspective on religious life is coming from. I can honestly say that I have never met a sister who didn't care about Jesus, had a job that was just a job, and didn't care about her spiritual life. (How can you tell these deeply personal things just by looking at someone or meeting them casually anyway?) Where have you met, experienced, or interacted with one of these religious women? I have a job that is a ministry. When you have a ministry in a professional field you have to see it as both a ministry and a profession. A teacher has to teach. A nurse has to be a nurse. And some sisters are also social workers and that is their ministry. Since when did it become wrong to do these things with zeal for the kingdom? They need to be competent and focused on their work as part of the Gospel and religious life... Not because they don't care about God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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