Yaatee Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 This small but growing community is an offshoot of the original Los Angles IHM Sisters: http://sistersihmofwichita.org/ True, it is growing. It now has 25 members (2015 Guide) and prob a few novices--in 40 years next year. It is a habited teaching community in a very conservative state. Teaching is the most popular apostolate in active orders, is and always was, until the preferential option of the poor came into being as a response to the original constitutions of many communities, which were written by saints.
Maggyie Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 The reality is a lot more complicated than "the mean old Cardinal surpressing the nice nuns." This community wound up with a lot of problems, not least of which was sex abuse. These women were not angels. Probably the stress of the time revealed the problems rather than caused them. Nevertheless the point is, when a very large community utterly implodes like this it's mostly down to self destruction. An outside force, even a prince of the church, simply doesn't have that much power.
Gabriela Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Nunsuch, it is true that the large majority of new vocations are entering more traditional orders (by which I do NOT mean orders that celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass, but simply habited orders that live in community). The most recent CARA report on vocations to RL had that as one of their findings. Id link to it but I'm on my cell.
Nunsuch Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Those data are refuted by the Johnson, et al., study. I think the factor may be the way that "traditional" is being defined (and I do not mean Traditionalist, nor do Johnson, et al.). Gabriella, have you read the Johnson, et al., book? If so, I would be interested to know what you think of it.
Yaatee Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 The mean old Cardinal suppressing the nice nuns is one of those hoary old stories. The reality is much more complicated than that. This order became a community with a lot of problems, not least with sex abuse. Maybe the stresses of that time period revealed the problems, rather than caused them. Nevertheless this was at least as much a case of self destruction as it was destruction from outsiders. Well, what is a fact is that once the IHM's in CA were thriving and now they are gone. Without the Cardinal, they might not have been gone. The Benedictines, Dominicans and Franciscans, many in street clothes and doing many good works, are still very much with us. One thing happened after the papal commission was announced. The laity rose up in arms to defend their beloved sisters, the ones that, in many cases, had saved them from drugs and jail. The other is something that I noticed in reviewing their websites, newsletters, annual reports, etc. That the acknowledgements for donations went on for pages and pages. The numerous galas, golf tournaments, balls, etc. all raised huge amounts of money for the sisters' aging building maintenance and building of new apartments for the aged, and construction of their own facilities for their aged. Time and time again multimillion dollar goals were met for these ambitious projects. There is a tremendous amount of support out there for these communities. I think that this support, plus the change in pontificate, had a great deal with the new detente between these communities (LCWR, for the most part) and the Vatican. It was striking that Pope Francis himself met with these nuns.
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 You don't need to say sorry and my frustration is a valid feeling that I'm choosing to acknowledge out loud in the hope that it might add to your perspective of things. I didn't say it to make you feel bad but to let you know how you might be perceived and how others might feel in response to that. I have to be honest in saying that I don't know of any religious or communities that are the way you say they are... I haven't met them but you seem to think they exist so I guess I just don't understand where your perspective on religious life is coming from. I can honestly say that I have never met a sister who didn't care about Jesus, had a job that was just a job, and didn't care about her spiritual life. (How can you tell these deeply personal things just by looking at someone or meeting them casually anyway?) Where have you met, experienced, or interacted with one of these religious women? I have a job that is a ministry. When you have a ministry in a professional field you have to see it as both a ministry and a profession. A teacher has to teach. A nurse has to be a nurse. And some sisters are also social workers and that is their ministry. Since when did it become wrong to do these things with zeal for the kingdom? They need to be competent and focused on their work as part of the Gospel and religious life... Not because they don't care about God. i never said I met someone like that... I was talking hypothetically / theoretically. Also I never said its wrong to do active work... Only without an interior life. I wasn't talking about anyone I met. In fact the book I read Soul of the Apostolate implies that anyone can slide into this even people who really love God. Maybe the book could clarify... It's about how without a strong interior life its easy to become all about work and lose concentration. I wasn't talking about a particular community but a danger that exists. It exists for me as well.
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 MLF, once more--on what basis do you say that it is the more traditional communities that are getting most of the vocations? He data say that about half are going into more traditional communities and half into others. Since there are far fewer "more traditional" communities, the numbers may be more concentrated (although some more traditional communities are not getting any vocations). There is a book based on serious scholarship in religious sociology, two of whose authors are sisters, which has researched this very rigorously and is based on more than impressions. You may find it of interest: http://www.amazon.com/New-Generations-Catholic-Sisters-Challenge/dp/0199316848/ im just looking at where young women tend to join and the orders that are really growing
Gabriela Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Those data are refuted by the Johnson, et al., study. I think the factor may be the way that "traditional" is being defined (and I do not mean Traditionalist, nor do Johnson, et al.). Gabriella, have you read the Johnson, et al., book? If so, I would be interested to know what you think of it. No, I haven't read that. Could you provide a full citation? How exactly did they go about refuting a CARA report? CARA reports are pretty reliable (methodologically speaking), so I'm skeptical.
Gabriela Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 @Sister Marie and @MarysLittleFlower: I think y'all are talking past each other, and don't actually disagree. Sister Marie, you're making more sophisticated distinctions than MLF's language does, but I think she's referring not to communities involved in social justice work or out of habit in general, but to the communities of women we so often hear about in the media that support artificial contraception and "women's rights" like abortion. She's talking about the lunatic fringe of women's "religious life", the kind that isn't even properly Catholic anymore, the kind with feminist mission statements and Georgia O'Keefe-style artwork on their homepages. Obviously you're talking about women who are still faithful to the Church—which is a different group of women altogether!
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 @Sister Marie and @MarysLittleFlower: I think y'all are talking past each other, and don't actually disagree. Sister Marie, you're making more sophisticated distinctions than MLF's language does, but I think she's referring not to communities involved in social justice work or out of habit in general, but to the communities of women we so often hear about in the media that support artificial contraception and "women's rights" like abortion. She's talking about the lunatic fringe of women's "religious life", the kind that isn't even properly Catholic anymore, the kind with feminist mission statements and Georgia O'Keefe-style artwork on their homepages. Obviously you're talking about women who are still faithful to the Church—which is a different group of women altogether! yes I meant either fictional theoretical communities and those fringe ones I'm sure Sr Marie would not feel comfortable with too. I mean something like... Really really liberal... Like if asked what their purpose is they'd talk about everything except Jesus. Then after I remembered its easy for any of us including me to forget an interior life - its a constant danger just like pride! But I didn't mean more contemporary communities... But I was imagining something not centred on Christ. I haven't met such a community though and I don't know any of their names. It was an image in my mind
Maggyie Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 To be honest I do not think the effectiveness of ministry can be measured in gala balls and golf tournaments. The Legion of Christ has plenty of success with such well heeled fundraising. The experience of Catholics with these particular religious is extremely mixed, which you would know if you talked for instance with a wide number of their former students. Towards the end this was a very unhealthy congregation and they damaged people.
Maggyie Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 And my intention is not to be negative or run them down, I am sure they did many good works, and it's sad when a religious order ends, to be sure. But at the same time something we Catholics struggle with is honesty about our leaders and institutions. The other orders in street clothes, and many in habits, that you mention will for the most part eventually suffer the same fate as the IHMs (annihilation). The Baby Boom generation was the last to be widely educated by the sisters and brothers at a time when parochial school was considered a duty for Catholic parents. I suspect it is these nostalgic, late middle-aged adults who are attending the golf tournaments. Today the vast majority of babies being baptized will never be impacted by religious. To be honest I am 30 years old and most of my Catholic peers are not even aware these women still exist. I remember telling one friend in college I was discerning and she assumed that I was going to have "to move to Europe" to do it! There are lots of excuses from leaders and religious themselves as to why this is the case. What we know for sure is that a single Cardinal in California did not cause religious life in the United States to rot out from the core. What killed off the LA IHMs is what is killing off most orders. Their community was spectacularly unhealthy to begin with and so it killed them faster. A true reform and Renaissance in religious life is in the offing but honesty about the failures and problems is key.
NadaTeTurbe Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 I think that the strength of new communities is their communication. They are on the internet, they speak a lot, they are visible, and they post pictures of their members even if they are just postulant ! So, you have the impression that they have more members than other. For exemple, in France, if you ask a random catholic who have the most vocation, Jesuits or Brother of Saint John ? They will say "Brother of Saint JOhn ! New order ! Habit !". Well, this year, they have had the same number of ordination. Also, in this community, a lot of people leave; The next door community, in my city, a new, habited, charismatic, community, have a lot of vocation, but nearly hald of their brothers and sisters have left. I knew of an non habited order who have one or two new vocation every year. They are growing, but because they are not super into internet, you will never heard of them. I confess that I prefer orders that don't advertise themselves and their members in the internet.
beatitude Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Well, what is a fact is that once the IHM's in CA were thriving and now they are gone. Without the Cardinal, they might not have been gone. The Benedictines, Dominicans and Franciscans, many in street clothes and doing many good works, are still very much with us. One thing happened after the papal commission was announced. The laity rose up in arms to defend their beloved sisters, the ones that, in many cases, had saved them from drugs and jail. The other is something that I noticed in reviewing their websites, newsletters, annual reports, etc. That the acknowledgements for donations went on for pages and pages. The numerous galas, golf tournaments, balls, etc. all raised huge amounts of money for the sisters' aging building maintenance and building of new apartments for the aged, and construction of their own facilities for their aged. Time and time again multimillion dollar goals were met for these ambitious projects. There is a tremendous amount of support out there for these communities. I think that this support, plus the change in pontificate, had a great deal with the new detente between these communities (LCWR, for the most part) and the Vatican. It was striking that Pope Francis himself met with these nuns. Without the cardinal, they might not have been gone. They might also have set up a farm to breed pink unicorns. What's the use of speculating? We can't know what would have happened. We only know what did, and as Maggie has pointed out, these sisters had all sorts of internal problems (including sexual abuse) that could have contributed to their ending. Communities have come and gone throughout the Church's history. This is not necessarily a terrible thing. Sometimes trees die and new trees grow. Comparing the IHMs with the Franciscans, Benedictines, and Dominicans doesn't make any sense either, as the IHMs were a single community while these other three are orders - and within each of these orders there are communities that have lasted hundreds of years and others that came to an end. It seems as though you want to take the most sensationalist interpretation possible from this story.
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 I'm not talking about this order or any particular order but about in general orders dying out. Ive been reading the book Soul of the ApostolateApostolate with the Legion of Mary that I'm part of. And I highly highly recommend it to all especially if you have any apostolate. There's an example there of successful apostolate's and religion teachers. They did not focus on programs etc but simply on much prayer and holiness. They succeeded much more than others. St John Vianney did not help convert hundreds of thousands of people through any way except prayer sacrifice and charity. I don't believe these are old ways but eternal ways. They allow God to work instead of mostly human action. There is an example there of two Sisters who taught religion. One was so enthusiastic and the kids loved her. Then the priest suggested another and was told - what do you mean, she is our best one? Thisother teacher maybe had less natural talent but a powerful interior life. The kids were less excited in her lessons (the other had all sorts of games etc) but there was more fruit if I remember. Our Lord told some mystics what He expects from His chosen souls. . love, reparation, sacrifice, never refusing Him anything, His Will above theirs... And He loves obedience. I'm confident that any order focusing on this, no matter how active or contemplative, will not only grow but will show incredible fruit in the work. Because Jesus wants to act in our actions... He doesn't just want human acts. There is only one way to get to this. I'm not saying this as a criticism to anyone here. I'm sure there are people with a much stronger interior life than me here especially religious. I'm not even a religious. I guess I have no authority to talk about this at all. But I wanted to share what this priest wrote and what Our Lord told souls because if He said this it must be important. Also lay people can learn from this how to make their apostolate effecive. Personally it has changed how i aoproach work etc. I believe the only thing to seek is union with God and all else will come. its not wrong to plan events etc. But so often they are done with much effort and little fruit. Is the end result conversion and sanctification of souls? Or was it just a nice event? For example im a teacher and im sure i can teach the children better after mental prayer and Adoration than just as i am ...but if i were to become a saint, then i'd make the most difference in their lives. I still need good lesson plans but even the best plans would not affect someone as God working through a soul who has given herself to Him, unreservedly. this person may only need very simple plans anyway. Thats all i wanted to say here... This is my last post in this thread though. God bless
Nunsuch Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Gabriela, I put a link to the Johnson book in my first reference to it, which is toward the end of page one of this thread. It is published by Oxford University Press,and is a very important recent book. I heard two of the authors discuss this research recently at the "Nun in the World" conference in London this past May, celebrating the 50th anniversary of Vatican II. That is where I gave a paper on what happened to lay sisters.... I'd love to know what you think after you have read it. It's really essential to anyone interested in vocations from a scholarly perspective. But it's definitely accessible to general readers, too.
He is Risen! Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 There is a wonderful community of IHMs in Wichita, I discerned with them a million years ago. I heard (maybe not remembering correctly) that they split from the California IHMs around the time of Vatican II. http://sistersihmofwichita.org/
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 There is a wonderful community of IHMs in Wichita, I discerned with them a million years ago. I heard (maybe not remembering correctly) that they split from the California IHMs around the time of Vatican II. http://sistersihmofwichita.org/ Looks like a nice order
Yaatee Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 Gabriela, I put a link to the Johnson book in my first reference to it, which is toward the end of page one of this thread. It is published by Oxford University Press,and is a very important recent book. I heard two of the authors discuss this research recently at the "Nun in the World" conference in London this past May, celebrating the 50th anniversary of Vatican II. That is where I gave a paper on what happened to lay sisters.... I'd love to know what you think after you have read it. It's really essential to anyone interested in vocations from a scholarly perspective. But it's definitely accessible to general readers, too. The reality is a lot more complicated than "the mean old Cardinal surpressing the nice nuns." This community wound up with a lot of problems, not least of which was sex abuse. These women were not angels. Probably the stress of the time revealed the problems rather than caused them. Nevertheless the point is, when a very large community utterly implodes like this it's mostly down to self destruction. An outside force, even a prince of the church, simply doesn't have that much power. He did in this case. Maybe now, not so much. They were pontifical, and they could have gotten the Vatican involved. In retrospect, I am sorry that they didn't.
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