Maggyie Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 i find that story about management having ambulances parked outside... hard to believe. ambulances cost 10 times as much money to the employer and potential lawsuits, etc. well after the local newspaper did an expose in 2011 they finally installed a/c. you are looking at costs from a big picture, for a front line manager, he's not evaluated on costs to health insurance but you can bet HIS boss will notice a drop in widgets going out the door... notice they picked a warehouse without a/c in the first place. Cheap cheap cheap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 You may not believe it, but the NYT isn't exactly known for low-credibility reporting. Why are you so hostile in this thread, little2add? You seem offended by the idea that the poor deserve more from us. Does anyone know of an Amazon alternative? I mean, I live in the corn, so I buy a lot from Amazon cuz I can't get it locally. Where else can a person go online? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) I'm not hostile or offended. However raising the min Wage is not the problem or the solution . Edited August 16, 2015 by little2add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) Read this horrible story in the New York Times to read how Amazon is abusing its white collar workers (and blue collar too. My "favorite" story is the one where the warehouse workers have to toil in 100 degree heat without a/c, and instead of letting them take a break, management has ambulances parked outside to take the workers away as they collapse.... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html from what I can find out Amazon pays well and has outstanding benefits Edited August 16, 2015 by little2add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) from what I can find out Amazon pays well and has outstanding benefits except if you use the benefits you will be "managed out." Did you read the NYT article? If you consider an 80 hour work week, many of these professionals are actually working for min wage. Edited August 16, 2015 by Maggyie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 except if you use the benefits you will be "managed out." Did you read the NYT article? If you consider an 80 hour work week, many of these professionals are actually working for min wage. the job could be outsourced to Pakistan and India or some other some other backwater hellhole and probably will in a short time There's a vast difference between skilled and unskilled labor. You wouldn't pay a doctor the same thing that you would pay a restaurant busboy pay or wages should be based on merit and for providing a valuable commodity or service to The community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) the job could be outsourced to Pakistan and India or some other some other backwater hellhole and probably will in a short time There's a vast difference between skilled and unskilled labor. You wouldn't pay a doctor the same thing that you would pay a restaurant busboy pay or wages should be based on merit and for providing a valuable commodity or service to The community Do teachers provide a "valuable commodity or service to the community"? Is it less valuable than an iPhone? I recognize your arguments: They're Republican. Anything that would restrict businesses from doing whatever they like is wrong. All responsibility falls on the employee who "chooses" to work for a business. That argument's not in line with Catholic social teaching. Edited August 16, 2015 by Gabriela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Do teachers provide a "valuable commodity or service to the community"? Is it less valuable than an iPhone? what are you talking about? A iPhone is an object, not a skill? Yes, School teaching is a valuable skill I don't know about the rest of the country but in New York State teachers are very well paid. Edited August 17, 2015 by little2add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 what are you talking about? A iPhone is an object, not a skill? Yes, School teaching is a valuable skill I don't know about the rest of the country but in New York State teachers are very well paid. Teachers are paid squat in most places. Apple employees, on the other hand, make a killing. Are you going to say that teachers deserve less pay because they selflessly serve the public while Apple employees deserve more pay because they serve consumerism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Teachers are paid squat in most places. Apple employees, on the other hand, make a killing. Are you going to say that teachers deserve less pay because they selflessly serve the public while Apple employees deserve more pay because they serve consumerism? You do not know what you are talking about. Apple store employees get much less than a teacher's starting wage her in Florida (which isn't that great). Plus they worked 'retail hours'. Blame God for kicking humanity out of Eden and condemning humans to work for their daily bread. It is obvious by your ignorant posts, you have more passion that wisdom. You do make some good points, but unfortunately, you undermine and discredit yourself with ignorant rants like the above. 2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice.221 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. “Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural, and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good.”222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages. (1867) 2427 Human work proceeds directly from persons created in the image of God and called to prolong the work of creation by subduing the earth, both with and for one another.210 Hence work is a duty: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.”211 Work honors the Creator’s gifts and the talents received from him. It can also be redemptive. By enduring the hardship of work212 in union with Jesus, the carpenter of Nazareth and the one crucified on Calvary, man collaborates in a certain fashion with the Son of God in his redemptive work. There is a difference in benefiting society as a teacher and a sanitation worker and a restaurant worker. Part time high school and college students and younger persons learning how to be a productive employee need access to jobs according to their need and contribution to society. They have a different need than a parent or a couple maintaining a household. It's nice to want to move out from your parent's home or not have a room mate or 4, but it isn't necessary to say an employer has to pay them the same as they pay a summer student employee. the problem and solution is a little more involved than emotional histrionics can illuminate and answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 You do not know what you are talking about. Apple store employees get much less than a teacher's starting wage her in Florida (which isn't that great). Plus they worked 'retail hours'. Blame God for kicking humanity out of Eden and condemning humans to work for their daily bread. It is obvious by your ignorant posts, you have more passion that wisdom. You do make some good points, but unfortunately, you undermine and discredit yourself with ignorant rants like the above. 2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice.221 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. “Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural, and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good.”222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages. (1867) 2427 Human work proceeds directly from persons created in the image of God and called to prolong the work of creation by subduing the earth, both with and for one another.210 Hence work is a duty: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.”211 Work honors the Creator’s gifts and the talents received from him. It can also be redemptive. By enduring the hardship of work212 in union with Jesus, the carpenter of Nazareth and the one crucified on Calvary, man collaborates in a certain fashion with the Son of God in his redemptive work. There is a difference in benefiting society as a teacher and a sanitation worker and a restaurant worker. Part time high school and college students and younger persons learning how to be a productive employee need access to jobs according to their need and contribution to society. They have a different need than a parent or a couple maintaining a household. It's nice to want to move out from your parent's home or not have a room mate or 4, but it isn't necessary to say an employer has to pay them the same as they pay a summer student employee. the problem and solution is a little more involved than emotional histrionics can illuminate and answer. Let's try to keep it civil, okay? You've just made my argument for me: Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural, and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good.... Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages. I fail to see the relevance of paragraph 2427 to our discussion. Are you saying that the working poor should just suffer their poverty because, hey, it unites them to Christ? That's so convenient for those of us who have plenty. "Don't help them because then they'd be less like Christ." In moderated form, that was the view of the Catholic Church prior to Rerum Novarum. But since Rerum Novarum, fair labor conditions (= living wage, reasonable job security, a safe and healthy working environment, plenty of time for rest, etc.) have been the Catholic social teaching standard on employer-employee relations. There is a "difference in benefiting society as a teacher and a sanitation worker and a restaurant worker". But we're not talking about the pay differences above the living wage. We're simply saying that ALL workers ought to be paid a living wage, regardless of whether they are skilled or unskilled. Paying a part-time high school or college intern less than a person with a family seems perfectly fine in the Catholic view, but unfortunately that is considered "discrimination" in our society. Laws have made it impossible to distinguish the high school student working at McDonald's from the single mother of 4. "Equal pay for equal work" isn't just a feminist cry. It's been broadened to all demographics. If Apple pays their shop employees below a living wage, then there's a problem. In comparing Apple employees to teachers, I was referring to their developers, who make a killing. Why are people who fashion gadgets paid more than people who teach the next generation of Americans? Of course, now we're talking about pay above the living wage. My point was in response to little2add's comments that suggested that pay scales are all just and dandy in the US. Comparing teachers to hi-tech workers shows there is in fact a clear perversion of priorities in our pay scales. again... As someone has already pointed out, we're not saying the EMT is being paid enough. He saves lives. Like the teacher, his work is more important than that of people who simply serve consumerist greed. He should therefore be paid more. BUT the burger-flipper also puts in a day's work, and so, according to Catholic teaching (and just basic human morality), the burger-flipper deserves a living wage. Which at present, in most places, s/he does not get. I'm not hostile or offended. However raising the min Wage is not the problem or the solution . What is the problem? What is the solution? Personally, I'm not for more government intervention into business or more legislation on labor issues. I think we ought to boycott such companies to shame, or if they are shameless (which I expect most of them are), then we ought to boycott them into the ground. The problem is that, in American society, the large majority of companies are, in some way or another, unjust to their employees. So barring going off the grid, what are we to do to ensure just employment conditions? If we think that justice is more important than the amount of government regulation (which, even as a Libertarian, I do), then government intervention seems like our only option. Now, raising the minimum wage doesn't have to be the way we go. We could come up with more creative solutions, and that might be desirable, considering raising the minimum wage has always raised the cost of living simultaneously and so ends up being nothing more than a temporary correction. Ultimately, the problem isn't low wages per se but huge income disparities. If we had more pay equality across the board, the cost of living would "level" to a point that all people could at least survive with dignity in our economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 hmm, what's more stressful: dealing with someone having a heart attack or facing a 300+ lb male who is BULL because you forgot to put katchup in his doggy bag . . . Could really go either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 hmm, what's more stressful: dealing with someone having a heart attack or facing a 300+ lb male who is BULL because you forgot to put katchup in his doggy bag . . . Could really go either way. Good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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