Modesty: what's the point?

[MarysLittleFlower]

I thought this was a pretty good article... any thoughts? http://chastity.com/article/modesty-what%E2%80%99s-the-point

By the way, the Song of Songs is traditionally to be understood about the soul and Christ, rather than human love, so the verse from there can be applied to spiritual reality too

God bless!

[NadaTeTurbe]

This article have such a low idea of men, it's frightening. In a way, it is the same way of thinking than some radical feminist. 
 

Have you ever been frustrated by the way men treat women and wondered what could be done to restore a sense of respect? If so, the solution is closer to you than you realize" While our culture treat women like object and like to represent men (in movies, books) like pigs, most of the men that I know treat women with respect and dignity. Men are grown-up and able to control themself. 

"Whether a woman realizes it or not, the way she dresses has an extraordinary ability to help shape a man into a gentleman or into a beast." This is very close to the "she was raped because her skirt was too short". Again, the men that I see around me are not "a gentleman or a beast" because of how the women around them dress, but because of education, politeness, and own characters. 

In order to appreciate the influence that women have on men, females must first realize that males are very visual creatures. This is partly because of how their minds work, but it is also because women possess great beauty. In fact, nothing on earth approaches the beauty of women." So, women are not visual creatures ? Men have no great beauty ? You know, women can be attracted to men because of their beauty too. 

Because the beauty of the woman can be intoxicating to a man, he may find it difficult to see beyond it. " Again, are men so stupid ? Are they so controlled my hormones ? 

Modern culture tells women, “If your body is so great, show yourself!” The woman who understands her worth resists such an invitation and replies, “Because of my value, I veil myself. My body was not given to me for the sake of exposing it to you. If I show too much, I wouldn’t be revealing my true worth to you. I’d be distracting you from what matters most." This look like the testimony of muslim women on why she chooses to wear niqab. 

Therefore, the men who frustrate or upset you by whistling or making crude remarks need you to realize your own dignity as a daughter of God" Any man who make crude remarks need an education. Same things for women who judge men bodies by crude remarks. Seriously. 

Btw, while I agree on the fact that our culture sexualize women, let's not forget that our cultures also : 
a) Sexualize A LOT men, with impossible standard to reach for them, causing many men to have a bad body image 
b) Deshumanize men a lot, when they represent them (by movies, books), like pigs obsessed by sex. Here's a comic who speak about it with humor : http://www.collegehumor.com/post/7030066/guys-in-movies-vs-real-life 

Instead of this, I prefer this testimonies by Elizabeth Esther (who was raised by fundamentalist baptist - long skirt, etc... and then later converted to catholicism). I copy the extract that interest me : 
 

My three older kids are working through their second year of faith formation in our Catholic parish. Last week, they came home with a packet about physical, symbolic and internal boundaries. As I flipped through the worksheets, I saw the word MODESTY and my heart froze. I could feel thoseold purity culture ideas rearing their shame-y, blame-y heads. But then I read the definition. And I got all happy because here, read it for yourselves:

Modesty: The virtue that respects, honors and protects privacy: the quality of avoiding extremes of emotion, action, dress and language. Modesty respects my boundaries and the boundaries of others.

What a well-rounded, WHOLE-PERSON approach to understanding the virtue of modesty! This is a perfect example of why I love Catholicism--the theology isn't compartmentalized; meaning,modesty isn't exclusively about manner of dress but about the WHOLE WAY we live our lives.

The Catholic understanding of modesty is that it encompasses ALL we do.

In purity culture, modesty was exclusively about sexuality; more specifically, female sexuality.

But the true modesty goes far, far beyond that. It's about how we speak, how we act and it's about avoiding extremes. Modesty is about moderation, respect for my boundaries and the boundaries of others. It's about avoiding excess.

Couldn't we say, then, that all Christians are called to live modestly? I mean, if modesty is a virtue, it's not just for women. But how often do you ever hear Christians speaking about men being modest?

How often do we speak about modesty in regards to how we eat, how we spend our money, the kind of car we drive, the kind of house we live in?

http://www.elizabethesther.com/archives/2013/10/modesty-doesnt-live-in-a-multi-million-dollar-mansion.html 

This is what modest is for me. It's not ONLY about how we dress. It's about how we eat : eating too little is bad, and eating too much is bad too. "Avoiding extremes of action, dress and language" is very counter-cultural. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm not saying that modesty is only about dress. but I don't think its an insult to men to say that we have concupiscence? Many Christian guys would agree I think.. 

I think the article makes some good points but I wouldn't say that it covers everything that could be said about modesty, and other articles can add to it If anyone wants to share any here, that's fine. Modesty can't be covered by just one article imo.

Here's another view...

part 1 https://inmarysfootsteps.wordpress.com/2015/08/12/modesty-your-body-is-a-temple-part-1/

part 2 https://inmarysfootsteps.wordpress.com/2015/08/14/modesty-your-body-is-a-temple-part-2/

Just some of my own thoughts on modesty and the meaning of it.

[Maggyie]

Very silly article. A woman can't teach a man how to treat women through her dress. It simply doesnt work. That has to be taught by other men. That's why fathers are so important! 

Modest dress also doesn't protect one from mistreatment. Many women dress far more modestly than you, MLF, in the middle east; and yet rape, sexual assault and a profound lack of dignity for women are very common there. Why, because the men are taught to behave that way by their fathers...

modesty does not mean ugly. Unfortunately many women who attempt to dress modestly wear very plain, homely clothing in dark colors. They don't go shopping and carefully choose their clothes to look as lovely and attractive as possible. You could argue from the same principles that this is quite sinful since such clothing disfigures the image of woman's glorious body. It is like putting the tabernacle in a burlap sack. Yes God veils what is precious but he covers it with splendor. 

Edited August 24, 2015 by Maggyie

[NadaTeTurbe]

There's a difference between saying that men (and women !) have concupiscence, and saying that a man can go from a beast to a gentleman depending on how a woman dress. This is different. I agree also that it is difficult to be a chaste man in a world where man are encouraged to see woman as sexual objects. 

While you're not saying that modesty is only about dress, the article that you posted first only speak about that, and, when we speak about modesty, we tend only to speak of clothing.

I think there's other issues with clothing. Neglect is one of them, as pointed Maggyie. Neglect of my appearance is a lack of respect for myself (that is very common in rape victims), for other, and for social rules. 

[beatitude]

To be completely honest, my first thought on seeing the title of this thread was, "Another modesty thread on Phatmass: what's the point?"

Then I started reading the  article and realised it's not even about modesty, it's about misogyny. I was going to type out a proper critique, but I can't - for me arguing against this kind of thing gives it a legitimacy it doesn't deserve, by implying it's worth the discussion. It's too toxic for that. Anything that suggests rape has anything to do with the way a woman dresses is hateful and poisonous and completely inimical to the teachings of the Church.

For any uncertain Catholic girls reading this: your clothes are not magical and they do not have the power to turn men into "a gentleman or a beast". They don't "invite men to treat you the way you look". You look like a human being and you deserve to be respected as a human being no matter whether you're dressed in a bikini, a burqa, or a suit of armour.

[MarysLittleFlower]

No one is saying that women are responsible if men choose to do something sinful - whether choosing lustful thoughts, or actions, or rape. Thinking that is what the article is saying is a misunderstanding of the article imo. Men's choices are their own. But the guys who are striving for chastity don't want to deal with more temptations around them, just as a woman striving for chastity I don't want to deal with more temptations.

I also don't think that modesty equals ugly, but I don't think that long skirts or simple colours are "ugly" on those who choose to wear them. Simple colours are sometimes also worn by women who are trying to pursue a vocation - if they feel so lead in prayer. But there are many modesty styles to choose from, not just one.

Anyway... I just posted this to share an article, - some may not like it and others may like it, - I just shared it

[Maggyie]

Yes but when it comes to vocations we should dress according to our current station in life. Women (and men) should strive to make themselves as attractive as possible if living in the world. A Christian woman in dowdy, frumpy clothes does not glorify God. Actually it's very self indulgent to give up caring about being attractive and just wear things that are plain, shapeless and cover everything. It's much more work to dress nicely so that you reflect the beauty of God's creation. 

[Lilllabettt]

 

Modern culture tells women, “If your body is so great, show yourself!” The woman who understands her worth resists such an invitation and replies, “Because of my value, I veil myself. My body was not given to me for the sake of exposing it to you. If I show too much, I wouldn’t be revealing my true worth to you. I’d be distracting you from what matters most." This look like the testimony of muslim women on why she chooses to wear niqab. 

 

This part of the article is absolutely true. btw, what do you have against Muslims? 

Where the thing goes wrong is in suggesting that the way a woman dresses determines whether a particular man will be a gentleman to her. No. A real gentleman will speak to female prostitutes, strippers, drug addicts, thieves, etc. as kindly, gently, and with as much respect as he does his own wife or mother. That is  the gentleman test. Any man will treat a nun with respect, but only a true gentleman shows respect to infamous women. 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I agree that a real gentlemen would treat all women with respect btw. Maybe the article means what message we're sending... wearing immodest clothing sends the wrong message, - regardless of the guy's choices. It's how we portray ourselves.

Yes but when it comes to vocations we should dress according to our current station in life. Women (and men) should strive to make themselves as attractive as possible if living in the world. A Christian woman in dowdy, frumpy clothes does not glorify God. Actually it's very self indulgent to give up caring about being attractive and just wear things that are plain, shapeless and cover everything. It's much more work to dress nicely so that you reflect the beauty of God's creation. 

what do you mean by frumpy? I read that St Thomas Aquinas said that those who are not planning on marrying (like committing themselves to a celibate life) should not wear adornments - like jewellery etc. I used to wear adornments and at some point I just felt this was inconsistent with my serious discernment of religious life. My current state in life is as a lay woman, however if I were to wear adornments, - frankly I don't see the point, if I'm not planning on attracting any guys and i'd rather not deal with that. I use accessories if they're for a practical reason.

I wouldn't say that I dress "frumpy" though. Just simply. For example to work I'd wear a mid calf length skirt and a blouse / cardigan. I'm not sure what you mean by "frumpy"? I don't think it's ugly to "cover everything"... Our Lady covers everything, isn't she beautiful?

It's not that easy to try to look simple because human nature still strives for others' approval, - I wouldn't say that is self indulgent..

Edited August 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[NadaTeTurbe]

I have nothing against Muslims, but I have things against the niqab and the sittar (i.e, a veil who hide the whole face, the sittar is sometimes a part of the niqab who hide the veil), who are anti-social (it's too much hidding, it's like saying "I'm here but I'm not here". plus, here, it's forbidden by the law). I have things against the social pression, in some part of the city in France, to wear only pantaloons/trousers, because a skirt is "too sexual". Some school even have "skirt day" to remember girls that they can wear whatever they want. I also believe that to some point, when you change of country, you can keep some of your traditions (your languages, your food, etc...), but you also have to adapt yourself to the country you're in and to adopt the tradition of this country. That's why I'm not super-fan of the hijab, niqab, etc... 

Agree with the gentleman thing. And it doesn't come from nowhere : it comes from education. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

(Regarding being self indulgent) it would be different if the reason is just laziness of course. And we shouldn't look messy or sloppy. There are also cases where we can dress a bit more formal just to fit the situation. However, other times there can be too much fear of human respect imo. St Francis de Sales advised to dress according to our station in life - not too polished and not too much simpler than our station, - so that both the "young" and the "wise" would be pleased. However, he said that if even the "wise" (older people?) tend towards vanity (or something to that regard) then it's okay to look simpler. I forget the actual quote - anyone can look it up in the Intro to Devout Life if interested I try to dress according to my state in life however I don't think that certain adornments are necessary. We don't live in a culture where there's such an expectation of that like before maybe. Also there are Saints who did try to dress very simple in the world - St Gemma, St Frances of Rome, etc, and I have much respect for them cause they didn't care about human respect and just did what they believed was right for them  they didn't look sloppy though - always neat and put together, just simple.

Edited August 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[beatitude]

I agree that a real gentlemen would treat all women with respect btw. Maybe the article means what message we're sending... wearing immodest clothing sends the wrong message, - regardless of the guy's choices. It's how we portray ourselves.

The article means what the article says. "Her clothes and demeanor send out an unspoken invitation for men to treat her the way she looks." I don't know how much more plainly they could have phrased that. And this is even clearer: "Women who dress immodestly often complain that men are like animals. That's because the wild ones come running while the decent ones stay away."

And so is this: "The men who frustrate you by whistling or making crude remarks need you to realize your own dignity as a daughter of God." So all the street harassment we suffer happens because we just aren't dignified enough and are going around dressed like trollops. Funny, because the first time I got groped in the street I was wearing loose-fitting jeans and a long-sleeved shirt. The second time I was in an ankle-length skirt. But clearly the ankle-length skirt wasn't long enough and the harasser got a glimpse of my salacious shoelaces, and St Thomas didn't wear shoelaces, so obviously they're a tempting adornment that no self-respecting dignified Catholic woman would have, and they "invited" the groping. If only I had "realized my dignity" these "wild animals" wouldn't have felt "invited" to come along and do that to me. This is the logic we're dealing with here. I don't know what kind of mental cartwheels people have to perform to defend this stuff.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I didn't write the article. I said it made some good points that is all, doesn't mean it is perfect. For my own part I believe men's choices are their own - though I also believe its basic charity not to provide temptation especially as its hard enough for good Christian guys as it is. The St Thomas comment I made was about me and my own discernment. 

Edited August 25, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Archaeology cat]

The article means what the article says. "Her clothes and demeanor send out an unspoken invitation for men to treat her the way she looks." I don't know how much more plainly they could have phrased that. And this is even clearer: "Women who dress immodestly often complain that men are like animals. That's because the wild ones come running while the decent ones stay away."

And so is this: "The men who frustrate you by whistling or making crude remarks need you to realize your own dignity as a daughter of God." So all the street harassment we suffer happens because we just aren't dignified enough and are going around dressed like trollops. Funny, because the first time I got groped in the street I was wearing loose-fitting jeans and a long-sleeved shirt. The second time I was in an ankle-length skirt. But clearly the ankle-length skirt wasn't long enough and the harasser got a glimpse of my salacious shoelaces, and St Thomas didn't wear shoelaces, so obviously they're a tempting adornment that no self-respecting dignified Catholic woman would have, and they "invited" the groping. If only I had "realized my dignity" these "wild animals" wouldn't have felt "invited" to come along and do that to me. This is the logic we're dealing with here. I don't know what kind of mental cartwheels people have to perform to defend this stuff.

I got whistled at whilst 8 months pregnant. And other times while wearing clothes that fully covered me.