Why doesn't Catholic University of America like poor people?

[Gabriela]

 

A university is an idea with a form. It's a living idea, and modern universities still explicitly recognize their carrying on of the idea of the university of western tradition. Anyway, by natural I just mean a form in harmony with the idea. I happened tp read an essay by William James the other day arguing that the only purpose of a university is to train us to be able to judge the best in humanity, the way a skilled worker is trained to judge good and bad work in his craft...of course, he was writing a long time ago. Joh Henry Newman has an essay on the idea of the universty, I should read it.

 

Right, but the idea of a university can change. I think you acknowledge that when you say "it's a living idea". But when you say "modern universities still explicitly recognize their carrying on of the idea of the university of western tradition", though, I can't say I agree. First, who is this faceless "modern university"? Many faculty (especially in the liberal arts) may still recognize this. But few administrators do. And few students do. And few employers—who are as integral to the university system today as anybody else—do. Small liberal arts colleges recognize this idea much more explicitly and non-hypocritically, by which I just mean that more people at the colleges, regardless of their position, tend to recognize the idea and try to live up to it. But at universities, I think the very idea has changed. And it's changed drastically.

I love James and Newman, and I agree with them and with you about what a university should be. But I don't think that's what they are anymore, or what most of the people running them want them to be.

[Era Might]

Right, but the idea of a university can change. I think you acknowledge that when you say "it's a living idea". But when you say "modern universities still explicitly recognize their carrying on of the idea of the university of western tradition", though, I can't say I agree. First, who is this faceless "modern university"? Many faculty (especially in the liberal arts) may still recognize this. But few administrators do. And few students do. And few employers—who are as integral to the university system today as anybody else—do. Small liberal arts colleges recognize this idea much more explicitly and non-hypocritically, by which I just mean that more people at the colleges, regardless of their position, tend to recognize the idea and try to live up to it. But at universities, I think the very idea has changed. And it's changed drastically.

I love James and Newman, and I agree with them and with you about what a university should be. But I don't think that's what they are anymore, or what most of the people running them want them to be.

I definitely agree that universities have changed, for the worse in many ways. I guess the difficulty is that we have this blind idea that edumacacion is this grand thing that we have perfected in a tradition, but we don't reflect critically on how our conception of education differs...but universities still employ medieval garb at commencement. I don't think the idea has changed so much as we have gotten rid of the idea of an idea...universities today are part of key to our techical civilization, driven by integration into industry, resrarch, etc. I guess the closest they come to humanity is the commencement address where, for once, students are supposed to hear human advice for its own sake.

[hotpink]

I think part of this is disenenuious.  Many of the colleges that are listed in the top are very competitive, and have huge endowments.  They are considered "needs blind" which means that if Sally, Johnny, Sammy, Porter and Jenny are identical in every way and Sally puts her app in first but can't pay then Sally will be able to attend.  Johnny has money and can attend, but then Sammy, Porter and Jenny are stuck because aid ran out. 

Sammy, Porter and Jenny can't attend because Sally needed 40k worth of scholarship.  Needs-based school will let Johnny attend because he can pay, then divide a 40k scholarship between Sally, Sammy, Porter and Jenny giving them 10k each.

One can argue that Sally should be able to attend fully, but at the same time, there is some merit to situations where the burdan is on each student and they can determine for themselves what debt they want to take on and if that is worth the educaiton they are getting.

[CrossCuT]

Poor people are lazy so they shouldnt go to school.

[Era Might]

Poor people are lazy so they shouldnt go to school.

I know you're being sarcastic, but just to draw a serious point out of this...not everyone is cut out for school...or rather, let me put it a better way...an academic career is only useful for very limited purposes. We learn best by actually living...to the extent that academics helps us enhance our learning-by-experience, it can be good. Some of the smartest people around are poor peasants or street hustlers, they learn what actually matters in the environments they operate in. I work with an immigrant who's been cooking for a year...I asked him how he learned, he said he just learned by watching and observing...and he's great at cooking, the guy can chop up vegetables without looking, works 12 hour days 7 days a week. Some people DO learn better in an academic context...maybe they are wired to think in terms of ideas rather than experimental imitation...but even then, the academics only take them so far, they will have to learn  a whole lot about life in order to actually work out ideas in the real world.

I won't linger on my hobby horse, but I think it's absurd how we equate attending an educational institution with learning...our first instinct, whenever we want to do anything in life, is that we have to "go back to school"...it's pretty sad because it would be a lot cheaper and more effective if most people just had real-world apprenticeships where they could learn by experience. School is remarkably good for making us into administrators and function-performers...and I guess for many people that's what they want in life, a nice comfortable spoke in the wheel. I guess that's the ultimate purpose of school in our civilization. For those who seek something more, school has never  been a substitute for real life.

From the traditional idea of the university, I don't think the point is for people to go there to "learn" "stuff" but to enter into a community of learners...big difference, and a distinction that would probably make modern universities more meaningful for students today, if they realized the distinction.

[CrossCuT]

I know you're being sarcastic, but just to draw a serious point out of this...not everyone is cut out for school...or rather, let me put it a better way...an academic career is only useful for very limited purposes. We learn best by actually living...to the extent that academics helps us enhance our learning-by-experience, it can be good. Some of the smartest people around are poor peasants or street hustlers, they learn what actually matters in the environments they operate in. I work with an immigrant who's been cooking for a year...I asked him how he learned, he said he just learned by watching and observing...and he's great at cooking, the guy can chop up vegetables without looking, works 12 hour days 7 days a week. Some people DO learn better in an academic context...maybe they are wired to think in terms of ideas rather than experimental imitation...but even then, the academics only take them so far, they will have to learn  a whole lot about life in order to actually work out ideas in the real world.

I won't linger on my hobby horse, but I think it's absurd how we equate attending an educational institution with learning...our first instinct, whenever we want to do anything in life, is that we have to "go back to school"...it's pretty sad because it would be a lot cheaper and more effective if most people just had real-world apprenticeships where they could learn by experience. School is remarkably good for making us into administrators and function-performers...and I guess for many people that's what they want in life, a nice comfortable spoke in the wheel. I guess that's the ultimate purpose of school in our civilization. For those who seek something more, school has never  been a substitute for real life.

From the traditional idea of the university, I don't think the point is for people to go there to "learn" "stuff" but to enter into a community of learners...big difference, and a distinction that would probably make modern universities more meaningful for students today, if they realized the distinction.

This my good Sir, was excellent.

My fiance hated school, so he finished high school early, attempted college, but dropped out after 2 years with no degree. He is almost entirely self taught and can easily out compete with a bachelors or even masters degree + in knowledge and technical skill in his field for a job that pays $100k/year.

He is a special case though because he is quite motivated and knows exactly what he is good at. Not all students can reach that point. There are students who have the same potential but are crippled with anxiety and self esteem issues due to the inability to fit in with their peers in the academic atmosphere. That struggle also impacts them socially as well as academically which causes a negative feedback loop that eventually spirals into them giving up. We are getting better at encouraging these students, but we still have a long way to go in harnessing their strengths in a way that is appropriate for them. Offering alternative learning paths as well as the wisdom and care to avoid needless judgement and assumption is mandatory. Its all about opening your mind to new things instead of being stuck in the way we always used to do things. The world is learning and growing and we need to use our knew knowledge to make everyones lives better.

Our entire culture is still composed of enough old fogies who still embrace the ignorant lines of "That kid performs poorly because he is lazy and doesn't apply himself" when really, there is so much more to the picture. We too often shun these kids and label them as defect much sooner than we look for solutions that help them.