Women and Selective service

[Ice_nine]

So apparently some military officials are saying it's time for women to register for selective service. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/02/02/army-and-marine-corps-chiefs-its-time-for-women-to-register-for-the-draft/

Thoughts? I have a few.

1) I didn't realized that even males were required to register for a draft. I'm pretty sure none of the males of age that I know ever registered. Is this something done automatically? Maybe I'm just woefully ignorant, but I've never heard anyone talking about "oh I need to go register for the draft his weekend" back in high school or anything idk.

2) Here's my official position on women in the military: If women are talented enough to fill combat roles, then let them, but the women who will be able to hang with the men in terms of physical strength and endurance are going to be at the very top percentile of women. Most simply will not have the physical capacity to be in combat, I think most reasonable people know this. SO therefore:

3) It seems kind of stupid and passive-aggressive to me to require women to sign up for the draft. Almost like "OH you want equality?! How about this for equality! har har har." I feel like when it comes to talk about equal opportunity between sexes or races the conversation is dominated by morons who talk loudly and have no conception of nuance. Just because I feel like women who want, and are truly capable, to serve in the military should be allowed to doesn't necessarily mean it's fair to require compulsory service among a population of whom the vast majority are not fit for military service.

4) The US military, IIRC, for some reason or another has a higher prevalence of sexual predators than in the general population. Probably a systematic issue you need to fix before you force women to join eh?

 

[truthfinder]

Obviously this is an American thing, but as far as I can recall Canadian women have been 'draftable' for years (although the way the armed forces are going, I'd probably be kept out for being a bigot or something - after they got over the fact that I'm short and can't run to save my life). 

Ice_nine - your third point raises an interesting question - would this be eligible for draft in combat roles or what? It seems there would be a high 'weeding' out rate that would make for considerable expense. During the World Wars, there were lots of men who were unable to serve because of poor fitness (although more often due to malnutrition during childhood which resulted in being underweight/height); it certainly can't have gotten any better.  What's certainly not fair is expecting women to do the same job a man is able to when she's many inches shorter and possibly half his weight. 

[Makarioi]

I don't think women belong in the front lines. To me, they'd be a distraction and a hindrance. Not to think what would happen to them if captured because they're women. Supportive roles, yes. But, some may argue that women wanted equality.... But I don't think it should be to this extent

[CatherineM]

They can be drafted without being stuck in a combat unit. 

[bardegaulois]

Men are, at the age of 18, required to register with the Selective Service System. Failure to do this, though a crime, will not realistically lead to prosecution, but does disqualify one from any jobs with the federal government and likely some state or local governments as well, and can also affect one's eligibility for federal benefits.

When I was young, it was as simple as filling out a postcard and mailing it to the SSS office in Washington, but nowadays I'm sure it's possible to register online. After registering, you never hear from them again.

Most military personnel I've spoken to highly oppose the idea of a draft. They volunteered and worked with others who have volunteered and thus want to be doing this. Unwilling soldiers would sap the unit's cohesion and destroy morale all over the place. Due to this, a draft is very unlikely, and thus asking women to register is a moot point.

Almost all in the service I know consider general officers and DOD higher-ups to be increasingly out of touch with the needs and desires of the services they lead, putting political considerations above the maintenance of an effective and coherent warfighting force. They are, after all, political appointees. This would explain the recent decision to open combat roles (less then a tenth of all military jobs) to women and to compel the Marine Corps to accept mixed-gender training. This sort of thinking will certainly not outlast the Obama administration.

[veritasluxmea]

I think the military tries to avoid drafting as much as possible after what happened in 'Nam. So many people were drafted they had mutinies and people weren't doing their jobs and getting away with it and stuff. Or at least that's what I heard. So the draft is required but not really going to be used for our current situation, anyways. I imagine if Trump pushed us into WWIII it might come back, ha. 

I did talk to a friend once and he mentioned the draft, which is how I learned about it. He had a little card for it or it was on his license or something. 

[Amppax]

If you don't register, you can't receive federal financial aid. So that's a thing. I'm sure there are other things you can't get. 

Realistically, I doubt we'll ever have a draft again. I could be wrong, but warfare is becoming less and less about the number of boots on the ground, and more about technology, etc. So this is really just, like you pointed out, passive-aggressive backlash to what's been happening. 

Now if Trump or Cruz get elected, throw that last paragraph out the window. Who knows. 

[Maximilianus]

The next few years will be interesting for the US military, especially with advent of a new admin in the White House.

As for conscription of females, so far it seems the SecDef and SecNav have brushed the notion off for now.

The following gives some good insight from a fellow that is not a politically appointed yes man that sits behind a desk but someone in the know. His thoughts are not unique, but for every 50 grunts that says it's not a good idea to introduce women to combat units there is that one that says it a great idea and apparently it's the latter's stance the only one that matters.

This quote is a post from Sgt Major Justin LeHew, USMC, he knows a thing or two about combat. This is his response to the Secretary of the Navy comments about a study the Marines conducted that showed integrated units did not perform as well as all male units. 

Sgt. Maj. Justin LeHew

"Ok, been silent long enough on this. I have been a part of this process from the beginning and I am just going to put it out there. The Secretary of the Navy is way off base on this and to say the things he is saying is is flat out counter to the interests of national security and is unfair to the women who participated in this study.

We selected our best women for this test unit, selected our most mature female leaders as well. The men (me included) were the most progressive and open minded that you could get. The commander of this unit was a seasoned and successful infantryman. The XO of this unit was as good as they get, so good the USMC made her the CO of the Officer candidate school.

I just selected the SgtMaj of the unit to head up our senior enlisted academy at Camp Lejeune, NC. No one went in to this with the mentality that we did not want this to succeed. No Marine, regardless of gender would do that. With our limited manpower we cannot afford to not train eveyone to the best of their abilities.

This was as stacked as a unit could get with the best Marines to give it a 100 percent success rate as we possibly could. End result? The best women in The GCEITF as a group in regard to infantry operations were equal or below in most all cases to the lowest 5 percent of men as a group in this test study.

They are slower on all accounts in almost every technical and tactical aspect and physically weaker in every aspect across the range of military operations. SECNAV has stated that he has made his mind up even before the release of these results and that the USMC test unit will not change his mind on anything.

Listen up folks. Your senior leadership of this country does not want to see America overwhelmingly succeed on the battlefield, it wants to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to persue whatever they want regardless of the outcome on national security. The infantry is not Ranger School. That is just a school like any other school and is not a feeder specifically to the infantry.

Anyone can go to that school that meets the prereqs, just like airborne school. Kudos to the two women who graduated. They are badasses in their own right. In regards to the infantry....there is no trophy for second place. You perform or die.

Make no mistake. In this realm, you want your fastest, most fit, most physical and most lethal person you can possibly put on the battlefield to overwhelm the enemy's ability to counter what you are throwing at them and in every test case, that person has turned out to be a man. There is nothing gender biased about this, it is what it is.

You will never see a female Quarterback in the NFL, there will never be a female center on any NHL team and you will never see a female batting in the number 4 spot for the New York Yankees. It is what it is. As a country we preach equality.

But to place these mandates on the military before this country has even considered making females register, just like males, for the selective service is in all aspects out of touch with reality. Equality and equal opportunity start before you raise your right hand and swear and oath to this country.

Yes, we are an all volunteer force at the moment. Should this country however need to mobilize rapidly again to face the threats of the world like our grandfathers did, it will once again look to the military age males of this country to fill the ranks because last I checked, we did not require women to register for the selective service. Until that happens, we should not even be wasting our time even thinking about opening up the infantry to women.

To my female Marine friends out there, I love you to death, you are the best of the best and you have my continued admiration for what you do and to the Marines of the GCEITF....you are tops in my book for taking up the challenge...regardless what the SECNAV says about you not being the best that we could have put in that unit because you were....on all accounts."

 

[superblue]

5 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

So apparently some military officials are saying it's time for women to register for selective service. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/02/02/army-and-marine-corps-chiefs-its-time-for-women-to-register-for-the-draft/

Thoughts? I have a few.

1) I didn't realized that even males were required to register for a draft. I'm pretty sure none of the males of age that I know ever registered. Is this something done automatically? Maybe I'm just woefully ignorant, but I've never heard anyone talking about "oh I need to go register for the draft his weekend" back in high school or anything idk.

2) Here's my official position on women in the military: If women are talented enough to fill combat roles, then let them, but the women who will be able to hang with the men in terms of physical strength and endurance are going to be at the very top percentile of women. Most simply will not have the physical capacity to be in combat, I think most reasonable people know this. SO therefore:

3) It seems kind of stupid and passive-aggressive to me to require women to sign up for the draft. Almost like "OH you want equality?! How about this for equality! har har har." I feel like when it comes to talk about equal opportunity between sexes or races the conversation is dominated by morons who talk loudly and have no conception of nuance. Just because I feel like women who want, and are truly capable, to serve in the military should be allowed to doesn't necessarily mean it's fair to require compulsory service among a population of whom the vast majority are not fit for military service.

4) The US military, IIRC, for some reason or another has a higher prevalence of sexual predators than in the general population. Probably a systematic issue you need to fix before you force women to join eh?

 

The support roles that women have served in WWI and WWII are very important to this topic. From also a range of women snipers , to women spies,  also in WWI the German spy was also of influence to the war, Mata Hari and her story is / was up for debate on if she really did spy for the Germans, but most of the evidence shows she did to some degree.

The roles of women in the military is what is changing, and i disagree that it is this ha ha gotcha of well you want equality here is a ruck sack and rifle, off ya go. I have always felt it was the other way around, from the far left or where ever i am not sure. But the message to me seemed to be that women should be allowed to serve on the front lines.  The tone on that seems noble enough, why not ? Women are Americans in this country, and can pull a trigger just as easily as the next guy an maybe even better. What i can tell you from experience is that women in at least the army, when it comes to physical testing ( push ups, running etc ) are given or were when i was in, a lesser standard to perform by, example, women are allowed to do push ups on their knees, men are not.   Where is the equality in that ? who ever made the decision to give women a lesser standard of physical testing than men, are already drawing a division among soldiers which is not good for anyone.   What aggravates me, is this demand for equality for women in the military, to the point that this cry just flat out now over looks the real work women have constantly done in WWI and 2, and died just the same as men , in the process of war. How in modern times, the role of women just as a wife is so important as well. An again this idea of equality is now undermining the role of a wife now having to take charge of a family, and worry about her husband who is where ever or is now home alone.

As for your bullet point on the draft aka the selective service, i did sign up when i was 18, all i knew was it was the law, and that laws are to be respected, and that chances are i would not even be drafted in my life time, instead i had the brilliant idea to enlist on my own and screw my life up all by myself with out uncle sam demanding i join. Personally i think the selective service, drafting, and forcing young people to enlist in that , is a waste of time and money, and is more of a threat than anything else. We live in a society now, where technology plays a bigger part than boots on the ground, and war is changing drastically all the time, and a boots on the ground war is usually a last resort to something that has been festering for a long time. An more over i can really not believe that the military will ever be in such stress to need to have a draft again, that if the crisis was at the scale of fighting an enemy the scale of the Nazi regime , and not a desert gorilla warfare that we see now, that people would easily stand up to fight. Also there is the stop gap measure, to screw soldiers over that was recently used in the past conflicts that drew attention, to fill the " gaps " of lack of troops, which that lack was caused by the defunding of our military by our own government, so if the government just stops defunding the military and down sizing troop levels, there is no need for a draft or selective service.

To women again,

I served under Clinton, under don't ask don't tell,  I would crash this forum down if i wrote out all my experiences under that subject alone, and my experience was just a fraction of what took place.  For women in the service, or considering, i feel very sorry for them. They want to serve, with honor, to do right in the world, and have pride in their country. What they do not consider is that the military is a different world, and i would never suggest any woman to ever enlist unless she was enlisting as an officer. It won't make the life any easier but they will at least have some rank to protect themselves from those who have been in longer and are hardened.+

The U.S military was riddled with problems before allowing women to join, and sexual assaults was apart of that then, and is only becoming more of a problem now in the military, and it can not be curtailed . Not unless the military makes enlisting a stricter process, demanding better school grades from young applicants, for starters. I as a guy in the army, had to keep my mouth shut about a lot of underhanded an probably criminal things i saw taking place at times, not on a scale of sexual assault but crooked enough; and the one time i did speak up about something that took place, nothing happened. Not because of my rank, but because those in charge were friends with my NCO whom i reported, an i paid for it , but i didnt make his life any easier either. The same NCO bragged one time about having a female working for him, who said she couldn't lift a box as it was too heavy and needed help, he laughed as he bragged about how he told her to simply un pack the box, move what ever is by hand, and then repack it, instead of getting her help.

Is it all doom and gloom for women in the military , no, of course not . But the sexism and favortisim ( im not using spell check ) is far worse and blatant for women than men.

There are better ways for women to serve the country than on the front lines, but if a woman does decide to go into service and makes it more than likely into a majority male unit, she better know how to protect herself ,and she better know where her JAG office and make friends with as many MPs as she can.

[DominicanHeart]

I thought it was a requirement back in the day. I don't want to register. I couldn't handle it. I know it 

[Credo in Deum]

In Russia, women draft you. 

[PhuturePriest]

On 2/2/2016, 5:30:23, Ice_nine said:

So apparently some military officials are saying it's time for women to register for selective service. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/02/02/army-and-marine-corps-chiefs-its-time-for-women-to-register-for-the-draft/

Thoughts? I have a few.

1) I didn't realized that even males were required to register for a draft. I'm pretty sure none of the males of age that I know ever registered. Is this something done automatically? Maybe I'm just woefully ignorant, but I've never heard anyone talking about "oh I need to go register for the draft his weekend" back in high school or anything idk.

2) Here's my official position on women in the military: If women are talented enough to fill combat roles, then let them, but the women who will be able to hang with the men in terms of physical strength and endurance are going to be at the very top percentile of women. Most simply will not have the physical capacity to be in combat, I think most reasonable people know this. SO therefore:

3) It seems kind of stupid and passive-aggressive to me to require women to sign up for the draft. Almost like "OH you want equality?! How about this for equality! har har har." I feel like when it comes to talk about equal opportunity between sexes or races the conversation is dominated by morons who talk loudly and have no conception of nuance. Just because I feel like women who want, and are truly capable, to serve in the military should be allowed to doesn't necessarily mean it's fair to require compulsory service among a population of whom the vast majority are not fit for military service.

4) The US military, IIRC, for some reason or another has a higher prevalence of sexual predators than in the general population. Probably a systematic issue you need to fix before you force women to join eh?

 

Selective service is indeed required. In fact, men can't receive government loans for college until they sign up. I know this because I had to do it last year.

On 2/2/2016, 10:39:46, bardegaulois said:

Men are, at the age of 18, required to register with the Selective Service System. Failure to do this, though a crime, will not realistically lead to prosecution, but does disqualify one from any jobs with the federal government and likely some state or local governments as well, and can also affect one's eligibility for federal benefits.

When I was young, it was as simple as filling out a postcard and mailing it to the SSS office in Washington, but nowadays I'm sure it's possible to register online. After registering, you never hear from them again.

You can indeed register online. However, when I went to register, I found out the government had automatically registered me on my 18th birthday. I think that's the only example of efficiency I've ever seen out of a government agency.

[Ice_nine]

So I guess I was just ignorant. Oh dear . . .

I'm just laughing at how quickly the US military would send my ass back home if I were ever drafted. The whole thing seems silly.

[SaintOfVirtue]

I'm opposed to the whole "women in combat roles" shenanigans simply because it was a decision made for the political gain of politicians, and not to give us a tactical advantage over the enemy.

[PhuturePriest]

1 hour ago, Ice_nine said:

So I guess I was just ignorant. Oh dear . . .

I'm just laughing at how quickly the US military would send my ass back home if I were ever drafted. The whole thing seems silly.

It does seem like an incredibly inefficient way of getting a proper military force, especially today with the prevalence of individualism. In simpler times it was just understood that it was your duty to serve your country if called, but those times are long gone, and I'm not certain that's necessarily good or bad. I'd probably be a draft dodger, unless the war were so just I felt compelled to fight.