Aloysius Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 alright, im gonna call myself a mollinist, cause that's what ICTUS called me. basically, my position is the following. we all have free will. By our own choices and free will, we will either accept God's grace and all that cool jazz and go to heaven, or not and end up in the inferno. God, however, exists outside of time. Therefore, certain people He knows will make it to heaven. THey are the 'elect.' However, ppl can change at any time. God could be lookin down on the head of the Planned Parenthood Nazi Murderer group and considering them the 'elect' because He knows they convert later. However, he does not control this. It's like an arial view of an intersection. U see two cars goin really fast, you can know they're goin to crash, but u don't know control it. It's somethin like that. the elect are the predestined. They are predestined because God knew them even before He created them. They are predestined because they eventually make it into heaven. Heaven is on another time zone, completely outside our comprehension, cause God created time so he exists outside of it. anyway, tomism is basically just a big TULIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 anyway,,, i'll start it off by linkin what you said and bein all, "nuh-uh! " u said that my position violates the soveirgty of God. I don't think so. God's soveirgty is exactly what gave free-will it's power to deny Him. He loved us sooooooo much that He gave us free will. God creates us, and knows whether or not we we make it to Heaven because He exists outside of time. like i said with the watchin the cars from birds eye view thing. I dont like tomism as far as i understand it right now. It violates the soveirgty of our free will which God gave to us and gave soveirgty to so that we could make our own mistakes. 'the elect' are the ones who persevere to the end, only God knows who the elect are. He doesn't just ignore all other ppl. He loves all mankind equally. Those who love Him and worship Him at one time, but fall away later.... He knew they would fall away because He watched them driving their car down below. did that make sense? anyway, He didn't ignore them when they were all into it and stuff, bein like, well I know you're gonna fall away anyway. He loved them and worked with them, and they had the free will to decide one way or the other. anyway, it also might be best we don't even get into these things,,, cause it's way over our heads. I've been prayin about it and it hurts my head. however, i shall continue to pray about it and maybe i'll come up with a cool diagram like i did with the Trinity. i await to see what this debate turns into......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeSoul Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 So are there people who are not 'elect'? Why would God make people His 'elect' when they are going to hell! That totally smells of elderberries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Aloysius--- That sounds Pretty much like the teaching of the Church on the subject, Validated and declared by Trent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 Aloysius--- That sounds Pretty much like the teaching of the Church on the subject, Validated and declared by Trent. yay! thanx wherz icthus though? he's tomist and says that can also be held by Catholics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Aloysius, You da man! I agree 100%, until proven to be against the Church's teacings. But I totally understand what you're saying. Makes sense to me. I'll contemplate this too! It's a good focus for prayer. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 What is Ithicus argueing--I don't seee a Tomist disagreeing with your statement, a Follower of Augustine perhaps but, I fail to see it as a position hostile to Thomas' philosophy. I would love to see His explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skuba steve Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 im one of the elect.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 im one of the elect.... How do you know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skuba steve Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 God knew me and predestined me before I was born to live forever in heaven with him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 God knew me and predestined me before I was born to live forever in heaven with him... How do you know you're destined for heaven? Did God appear to you one day and say, "Yeah, Steve, I made you one of the elect!"? None of us is guaranteed heaven. We can all sin seriously and lose our salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 God knew me and predestined me before I was born to live forever in heaven with him... Ever hear about the sin of presumption Steve.? So you are totally sinless and will stay thay way the rest of your life? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 No answer from ithucus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 That's because ICTHUS has been camping. I would suggest reading "A Tiptoe Through TULIP" by James Atkin, who is a Catholic convert from Presbyterianism. It explains Thomism quite well. I'm in the middle of a sola scriptura debate with mustbenothing at the moment, but I would be happy to discuss this once that is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 Can we straighten something out? What do you all mean by Thomism and Mollinism: Thomism is the thought arising out of the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas. He wrote many works but his two most famous (and voluminous) are the Summa Contra Gentiles and the Summa Theologica. Thomism is completely 100% in line with the Teachings of the Church. In fact it is a systematic philosophical system which has been the foundation for most of the Theology written since the 1300's. Are we clear on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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