Aloysius Posted September 22, 2003 Posted September 22, 2003 alright, im gonna call myself a mollinist, cause that's what ICTUS called me. basically, my position is the following. we all have free will. By our own choices and free will, we will either accept God's grace and all that cool jazz and go to heaven, or not and end up in the inferno. God, however, exists outside of time. Therefore, certain people He knows will make it to heaven. THey are the 'elect.' However, ppl can change at any time. God could be lookin down on the head of the Planned Parenthood Nazi Murderer group and considering them the 'elect' because He knows they convert later. However, he does not control this. It's like an arial view of an intersection. U see two cars goin really fast, you can know they're goin to crash, but u don't know control it. It's somethin like that. the elect are the predestined. They are predestined because God knew them even before He created them. They are predestined because they eventually make it into heaven. Heaven is on another time zone, completely outside our comprehension, cause God created time so he exists outside of it. anyway, tomism is basically just a big TULIP
Aloysius Posted September 22, 2003 Author Posted September 22, 2003 anyway,,, i'll start it off by linkin what you said and bein all, "nuh-uh! " u said that my position violates the soveirgty of God. I don't think so. God's soveirgty is exactly what gave free-will it's power to deny Him. He loved us sooooooo much that He gave us free will. God creates us, and knows whether or not we we make it to Heaven because He exists outside of time. like i said with the watchin the cars from birds eye view thing. I dont like tomism as far as i understand it right now. It violates the soveirgty of our free will which God gave to us and gave soveirgty to so that we could make our own mistakes. 'the elect' are the ones who persevere to the end, only God knows who the elect are. He doesn't just ignore all other ppl. He loves all mankind equally. Those who love Him and worship Him at one time, but fall away later.... He knew they would fall away because He watched them driving their car down below. did that make sense? anyway, He didn't ignore them when they were all into it and stuff, bein like, well I know you're gonna fall away anyway. He loved them and worked with them, and they had the free will to decide one way or the other. anyway, it also might be best we don't even get into these things,,, cause it's way over our heads. I've been prayin about it and it hurts my head. however, i shall continue to pray about it and maybe i'll come up with a cool diagram like i did with the Trinity. i await to see what this debate turns into.........
FreeSoul Posted September 22, 2003 Posted September 22, 2003 So are there people who are not 'elect'? Why would God make people His 'elect' when they are going to hell! That totally smells of elderberries!
Don John of Austria Posted September 23, 2003 Posted September 23, 2003 Aloysius--- That sounds Pretty much like the teaching of the Church on the subject, Validated and declared by Trent.
Aloysius Posted September 23, 2003 Author Posted September 23, 2003 Aloysius--- That sounds Pretty much like the teaching of the Church on the subject, Validated and declared by Trent. yay! thanx wherz icthus though? he's tomist and says that can also be held by Catholics
Jake Huether Posted September 23, 2003 Posted September 23, 2003 Aloysius, You da man! I agree 100%, until proven to be against the Church's teacings. But I totally understand what you're saying. Makes sense to me. I'll contemplate this too! It's a good focus for prayer. Thanks!
Don John of Austria Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 What is Ithicus argueing--I don't seee a Tomist disagreeing with your statement, a Follower of Augustine perhaps but, I fail to see it as a position hostile to Thomas' philosophy. I would love to see His explanation.
Dave Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 im one of the elect.... How do you know this?
skuba steve Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 God knew me and predestined me before I was born to live forever in heaven with him...
Dave Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 God knew me and predestined me before I was born to live forever in heaven with him... How do you know you're destined for heaven? Did God appear to you one day and say, "Yeah, Steve, I made you one of the elect!"? None of us is guaranteed heaven. We can all sin seriously and lose our salvation.
cmotherofpirl Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 God knew me and predestined me before I was born to live forever in heaven with him... Ever hear about the sin of presumption Steve.? So you are totally sinless and will stay thay way the rest of your life? :D
ICTHUS Posted September 26, 2003 Posted September 26, 2003 That's because ICTHUS has been camping. I would suggest reading "A Tiptoe Through TULIP" by James Atkin, who is a Catholic convert from Presbyterianism. It explains Thomism quite well. I'm in the middle of a sola scriptura debate with mustbenothing at the moment, but I would be happy to discuss this once that is over.
BLAZEr Posted September 27, 2003 Posted September 27, 2003 Can we straighten something out? What do you all mean by Thomism and Mollinism: Thomism is the thought arising out of the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas. He wrote many works but his two most famous (and voluminous) are the Summa Contra Gentiles and the Summa Theologica. Thomism is completely 100% in line with the Teachings of the Church. In fact it is a systematic philosophical system which has been the foundation for most of the Theology written since the 1300's. Are we clear on that?
ICTHUS Posted September 27, 2003 Posted September 27, 2003 Okie day, I shall first explain Thomist soteriology as I see it. Like Calvinist thought, it can follow the acronym TULIP. Total inability - mans free will is damaged and is totally incapable of having faith in God unless God first gives him the grace to do so. (I believe that Canon III of the Council of Trent on Justification proves this, as well as various scriptural proofs) Unconditional Election - God unconditionally elects those who will be saved everlastingly. Note that Catholics are forbidden to affirm double predestination, i.e. that God actively predestines those who will be eternally reprobate, to reprobation since that would contradict the will of God that all be saved. Instead, He simply passes over and does not elect those who will be reprobate, leaving them to beaver dam themselves by their own free choice. An example might be drawn. The manager of a cricket team might have 30 players available to him to call up to play in a match but he only selects 12 of them. The rest are "benched". Limited efficacy of the atonement - the atonement was sufficient to atone for the sins of all mankind, but will only be efficacious (i.e. will only bring about everlasting salvation) for the Elect. Intrinsically efficacious grace - because of the kind of grace that it is, grace that enables a person to persevere until the end will always result in final salvation, because of the kind of grace that it is. Perseverance of the Saints - all those who are elected unto final salvation (some are elected to be saved in the first place, but then to lose their salvation) will persevere until the end.
ICTHUS Posted September 27, 2003 Posted September 27, 2003 Okie day, I shall first explain Thomist soteriology as I see it. Like Calvinist thought, it can follow the acronym TULIP. Total inability - mans free will is damaged and is totally incapable of having faith in God unless God first gives him the grace to do so. (I believe that Canon III of the Council of Trent on Justification proves this, as well as various scriptural proofs) Unconditional Election - God unconditionally elects those who will be saved everlastingly. Note that Catholics are forbidden to affirm double predestination, i.e. that God actively predestines those who will be eternally reprobate, to reprobation since that would contradict the will of God that all be saved. Instead, He simply passes over and does not elect those who will be reprobate, leaving them to beaver dam themselves by their own free choice. An example might be drawn. The manager of a cricket team might have 30 players available to him to call up to play in a match but he only selects 12 of them. The rest are "benched". Limited efficacy of the atonement - the atonement was sufficient to atone for the sins of all mankind, but will only be efficacious (i.e. will only bring about everlasting salvation) for the Elect. Intrinsically efficacious grace - because of the kind of grace that it is, grace that enables a person to persevere until the end will always result in final salvation, because of the kind of grace that it is. Perseverance of the Saints - all those who are elected unto final salvation (some are elected to be saved in the first place, but then to lose their salvation) will persevere until the end.
ICTHUS Posted September 27, 2003 Posted September 27, 2003 alright, im gonna call myself a mollinist, cause that's what ICTUS called me. basically, my position is the following. the elect are the predestined. They are predestined because God knew them even before He created them. They are predestined because they eventually make it into heaven. Heaven is on another time zone, completely outside our comprehension, cause God created time so he exists outside of it. anyway, tomism is basically just a big TULIP we all have free will. By our own choices and free will, we will either accept God's grace and all that cool jazz and go to heaven, or not and end up in the inferno. God, however, exists outside of time. Therefore, certain people He knows will make it to heaven. THey are the 'elect.' However, ppl can change at any time. God could be lookin down on the head of the Planned Parenthood Nazi Murderer group and considering them the 'elect' because He knows they convert later. However, he does not control this. It's like an arial view of an intersection. U see two cars goin really fast, you can know they're goin to crash, but u don't know control it. It's somethin like that.I agree with most of that, or at least I see how it could be considered orthodox. However, there is one bit that I dont like.... However, ppl can change at any time. God could be lookin down on the head of the Planned Parenthood Nazi Murderer group and considering them the 'elect' because He knows they convert later. However, he does not control this. It's like an arial view of an intersection. U see two cars goin really fast, you can know they're goin to crash, but u don't know control it. It's somethin like that God is SOVEREIGN. How can you say that He does not control something??
Aloysius Posted September 27, 2003 Author Posted September 27, 2003 1st, i hope this doesn't violate the no Catholic vs. Catholic rule... that was only for traditional vs. modern, right? anyway, ill at least respond to the crazy tulip Total inability - mans free will is damaged and is totally incapable of having faith in God unless God first gives him the grace to do so. (I believe that Canon III of the Council of Trent on Justification proves this, as well as various scriptural proofs) alright, i kinda agree her. The thing i'd like to emphasize is God gives man the grace, but he still must use his free will to accept the grace. Unconditional Election - God unconditionally elects those who will be saved everlastingly. Note that Catholics are forbidden to affirm double predestination, i.e. that God actively predestines those who will be eternally reprobate, to reprobation since that would contradict the will of God that all be saved. Instead, He simply passes over and does not elect those who will be reprobate, leaving them to beaver dam themselves by their own free choice. An example might be drawn. The manager of a cricket team might have 30 players available to him to call up to play in a match but he only selects 12 of them. The rest are "benched". hmmmm interesting. I'm still a bit weary of this. God wishes all men to be saved. THerefore, He makes His grace available to all men, God gave us the amazing gift of free will to either accept or reject this grace. So it kinda depends on your definition of election. He elects all men by making His grace available, but knows the ones that will accept it and therefore those who will accept it and persever He names the 'Elect'. Limited efficacy of the atonement - the atonement was sufficient to atone for the sins of all mankind, but will only be efficacious (i.e. will only bring about everlasting salvation) for the Elect. If you define the 'Elect the way i defined them above, then i agree with this statement. Intrinsically efficacious grace - because of the kind of grace that it is, grace that enables a person to persevere until the end will always result in final salvation, because of the kind of grace that it is. okay... intrinsically efficacious grace, but it must be accepted. again, defining elect the way i did b4, then the 'Elect' recieve this grace because they have accepted it, and they will only revieve this grace if they are going to persever to the end. Perseverance of the Saints - all those who are elected unto final salvation (some are elected to be saved in the first place, but then to lose their salvation) will persevere until the end. those who are elect in the way i defined, the ones that by free will which God gives them choose to accept His grace and persevere by not choosing to reject the grace later on, will persevere to the end. I'll call my acronym T-CLIP The 'C' stands for 'Conditionally Elected' i.e. all are elected on the condition that they will accept it. and dUST, if this thread violates your no Cath vs. Cath debate rule, i apologize. delete it if u want.
Aloysius Posted September 27, 2003 Author Posted September 27, 2003 However, ppl can change at any time. God could be lookin down on the head of the Planned Parenthood Nazi Murderer group and considering them the 'elect' because He knows they convert later. However, he does not control this. It's like an arial view of an intersection. U see two cars goin really fast, you can know they're goin to crash, but u don't know control it. It's somethin like that God is SOVEREIGN. How can you say that He does not control something?? i say He does not control it because He chooses not to. God loves us. he gives us free will that we can control our own lives. God is soveirgn, and He chose to give us the power to decide what we will do, whether we will sin, whether we will accept his grace, etc etc
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