Triumph: The Power and the Glory

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]I agree that we cant be two faced, but we also cant water down what is the truth of the Church, and its glorious roots in history.[/quote]

Very true. But at the same time, we need to be careful not to romanticize Catholic history. There has been good, bad, and ugly. This is another reason why I'm weary of a book like Triumph. It's kind of like what Mother Angelica used to say about the biographers of the Saints. They're gonna spend some time in purgatory for presenting them as immaculate doves, and not the real, flawed humans that they were.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 9 2005, 11:20 PM']Very true. But at the same time, we need to be careful not to romanticize Catholic history. There has been good, bad, and ugly. This is another reason why I'm weary of a book like Triumph. It's kind of like what Mother Angelica used to say about the biographers of the Saints. They're gonna spend some time in purgatory for presenting them as immaculate doves, and not the real, flawed humans that they were.
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True enough. But the Church shall always triumph in the end because it has Christ, and the Holy Spirit as a guide in the truth. But yes, your point is well taken. We are all sinners as well and make mistakes.

[Lounge Daddy]

heh - i think i shall pick this one up

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 9 2005, 11:12 PM']This is the kind of mentality we need to get out of. We'll be nice when we're with Protestatns, but we can be snarky when they're not around.

The Church's ecumenical vision needs to penetrate all aspects of Catholic life. We should avoid polemics in Catholic histories, not just because others don't like it, but because it betrays a basic respect we should have for non-Catholics. Truth is not the only consideration. Charity is always preeminent. Embracing non-Catholics as brothers does not abolish the demands of truth, but it requires an honest commitment to charitable discourse and dialogue. Beating people over the head with history, or teaching Catholics to do so, is not dialogue.
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No the Truth is always Preeminent, Always! Christ is the Way the Truth etc. Truth Comes before everything else, sugar coating the truth is not whatthe Ecuminical movment needs A firmer direct acknowledgement of it is. Agian if someone cannot handle the Truth then they need to go back to the nursry and cudle up with there blanky, because adults deal with what is. If this Book is untrue then that is a problem, if it is True well then we shouldn't hide it. I have had a great deal of success converting people from Protestantism and paganism and once communism( damnable liberal Catholic teaching gone arwy) all of of those Have come with the Help of the Holy Spirit and the unflinching, unwavering, championing of the Truth. If the Protestants don't want to here the truth then we should shake the dust From our feet and move on.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 9 2005, 11:20 PM']Very true. But at the same time, we need to be careful not to romanticize Catholic history. There has been good, bad, and ugly. [right][snapback]608449[/snapback][/right]
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please elucidate me on what exactly in Church history has been Bad.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Wow, Eremite, don't you think it might be important to read the book before you completely condemn it? Or are you just taking people's word for it?

[Dudette]

[quote name='luciana' date='Jun 10 2005, 12:39 AM']yep, I agree w/ fidei. From what I've read so far,The Triumph, The PoWer...by H.W.Crocker III, is a good general review of history.

I like it, and yeah, I wouldn't use it to give to Protestants either, but just as a reference instead.

I don't know what would be a good book on history to give to non-Catholics.

I do know  a slightly longer treatment of  history would be the books by Dr. Anne Carroll, haven't read them yet. (not Warren Carroll's famous, but unfinished set of books-- these are shorter) They're history books that tell history w/ Jesus and the Church at the center of it. I know they're used by homeschoolers, so they're not a populist read like Crocker's either. There's one that focuses on history in America, so I got it to use as a reference w/ my students for school, but haven't started it yet.

edited to add 1st name  to differentiate the Carrolls
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Ok, just a word, I wouldn't suggest reading Anne Caroll's history books, though I'm not a history person myself, other students who have read a lot of her books know that a lot of it isn't accurate. Her book....so far, has uh...made me go insane.

Ok, that was a rant, but I couldn't resist.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]No the Truth is always Preeminent, Always![/quote]

Not quite.

[quote]Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

(1 Corinthians 13)[/quote]

Nobody said that the demands of truth must be abolished (I specifically denied this, as does John Paul II). As GodConquers said, telling the truth and being an ass are two different things.

Until we make a concerted effort for a purification of memory and conscience that John Paul II spoke of in his Encyclical Letter Ut Unum Sint, we're gonna keep going around in contentious circles with brothers in Christ. Non-Catholics are not people to be dominated by truth. We are humble servants of truth, and fellow pilgrims with all others who seek truth. Dialogue entails a true exchange of charity and ideas, not abrasive monologues.

[quote]don't you think it might be important to read the book before you completely condemn it?[/quote]

I did read the book, or at least the first few chapters. No, I don't think I need to read the whole thing to know that it's not something I want to read, and not something I would recommend to others. And I don't think I "condemned" the book. I was clear to note that I didn't read the whole thing. My objections were on the portions I read, which are sufficient for me to form a working judgement on it, and whether or not I would recommend it. Reviews I have read from others regarding things like its triumphalism have only confirmed my suspicions.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 10 2005, 12:23 AM']please elucidate me on what exactly in Church history has been Bad.
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You're a smart man. You have books. Read them.

[Didacus]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jun 9 2005, 10:03 PM']What a good book.

I started it earlier, and I am up to the death of Constantine. Its a great history book!

Okay, carry on as you were.
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Where did you find the books? I looked around a bit but they are expensive... Is there a place you recommend? Which book do you suggest I read first from our new pontiff?

hmmmm... maybe this should be a new thread?

I read several reviews, from protestants, lutherans, catholics... and I agree, these books are a must!

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jun 10 2005, 03:08 AM']Wow, Eremite, don't you think it might be important to read the book before you completely condemn it?  Or are you just taking people's word for it?
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I've read it. It is sitting on my shelf. I agree its carp. I suggest "History of the Church" by Lortz-Kaiser. Hard to come by, but its an excellent book. Check it out of your local library.

[Guest Eremite]

Cambridge University Press is publishing a nine-volume "History of Christianity".

[quote]...[it will] provide the first complete chronological account of the development of Christianity in all its aspects - theological, social, political, regional, global - from the time of Christ to the present day. This ambitious project in nine volumes will connect the institutional history of the churches with the study of systematic and applied (pastoral) theology, and will cover popular piety and non-formal expressions of Christian faith as well as the more formal. The sociology of Christian formation, worship and devotion will be placed in a broad cultural context, and proper attention will be paid throughout to issues of spirituality and the spiritual content of Christianity's development. This is not a history merely of Western Christianity. Into the study of the early church and beyond, consideration of Eastern and Coptic Christianity will be properly integrated; and later, African, Far Eastern, New World, South Asian and other non-European developments in Christianity will receive proper coverage. The relations between Christianity and Islam, Christianity and Hinduism, and Christianity and Judaism will be kept in sight. Each of the nine volumes will be of value as a free-standing contribution within its own period; and when complete, The Cambridge History of Christianity will constitute one of the major works of academic reference of our times.[/quote]

[Fidei Defensor]

eh people, people.

If you like it, thats good, if you dont, thats fine too.

I happen to like the style.


:ph34r:

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 10 2005, 08:03 AM']Not quite.
Nobody said that the demands of truth must be abolished (I specifically denied this, as does John Paul II). As GodConquers said, telling the truth and being an ass are two different things.

Until we make a concerted effort for a purification of memory and conscience that John Paul II spoke of in his Encyclical Letter Ut Unum Sint, we're gonna keep going around in contentious circles with brothers in Christ. Non-Catholics are not people to be dominated by truth. We are humble servants of truth, and fellow pilgrims with all others who seek truth. Dialogue entails a true exchange of charity and ideas, not abrasive monologues.
I did read the book, or at least the first few chapters. No, I don't think I need to read the whole thing to know that it's not something I want to read, and not something I would recommend to others. And I don't think I "condemned" the book. I was clear to note that I didn't read the whole thing. My objections were on the portions I read, which are sufficient for me to form a working judgement on it, and whether or not I would recommend it. Reviews I have read from others regarding things like its triumphalism have only confirmed my suspicions.
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Yes Quite, The Truth is always first, without it there can be no salvation. Please show me any scripture which says that Charity supercedes Truth... Can you I doubt it.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 10 2005, 08:10 AM']You're a smart man. You have books. Read them.
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Your right I am a smart man and I have books, but you see I have read them, I studied Church history, for years, spenttime in the Seminary all of that, but I didn't make the Claim that there was aspects of the Churches history which was Bad, YOU DID. So I ask agian please enlighten me, what exactly in the History of the Church was Bad.