About Atheism

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jezic' date='Nov 3 2005, 12:03 PM']
proving God with philosophy is difficult because there are people who do not accept certain assumptions (which are valid) and those must be proven (so you end up proving many other things in the process.)
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I agree. Alot of God arguments rely on presuppostions.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Melchisedec

[philothea]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 3 2005, 11:47 AM'][quote name='philothea']And Christianity doesn't "make sense" like say, mathematics does.  Expecting otherwise is always going to lead to an apparent contradiction[/quote]
I am curious as to why it doesn't make sense? How could I understand it then?
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Why would anyone understand God? We are finite created beings (and seemingly rather stupid at that).

There are concepts innate in the Judeo-Christian God that are impossible for humans to understand: omniscience, eternal existence, omnipotence, perfection. We have words for these things but we can't encompass them with our small biochemical brains, and our tiny fleeting lifespans.

But more than that, Christianity itself is loaded with mysteries: redemption through suffering, God becoming human, life beyond death. None of it makes any sense. That is, actually, one reason why some people believe it's true. If someone was going to fabricate a religion, it would be a whole lot more logical than the bizarre stuff in the gospels! Just look at the eucharist. It's nuts. But yet, throughout history, many intelligent people have given their lives to defend this seeming absurdity. Perhaps there's something to it.

Similarly, scientific realities do not, when studied intently, make much "sense". Black holes. Relativity. Quantum mechanics. Our brains cannot encompas these things either. Our ability to "understand" is no a reason to decide whether something is real or not. Heck, we can't even figure out our own economy. The Catholic Church doesn't claim to make everything tidy and sensible to our small minds; it claims to have the Truth.

As for my other comments -- I don't mean to say that you are not being intellectually honest. I don't know you well enough. And I very much appreciate your participation in this forum!

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Nov 3 2005, 11:56 AM']Okay then, what makes you doubt Divine Inspiritation of the Scripture?

And I have to go, but I will try to reply later this evening.
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Well first of all how do we know if something is inspired? How can we verify it? How can we verify things such as the Pope's infallability on matters of faith. Is it simply a passage in a book, or do we have something else? How do we determined that other "inspired" books are fraudulent? Were all those who took part in the cannonizing of the bible inspired aswell? If so , how do we know?

[Aloysius]

it is quite obvious, actually, you just don't recognize it because you have so many presuppositions about the word "God" so as to blind you to the basic thing people are really talking about which really IS obvious.

God defines Himself in the Bible with the term YHWH, "I AM"

We take that to mean that God is the very definition of existence.

So the most basic thing that we believe is God, anyone who does not ascribe to philisophic fallacies that we are all a dream or something believes to be EXISTENCE.

So does existence exist, or not?

a rational athiest is going to say existance is.
a rational theist is going to say God is.

they're talking about the same thing.

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Nov 3 2005, 07:00 AM']

So all the atheist are simply lying about it? In denial? Or what?
I wasn't aware that atheism needed any arguments. Why would it? It doesn't make any claims.

[/quote]

Atheism makes the claim the God doesn't exist. All I ask is that an atheist prove that He does not. This has not been done.

[quote]Yes, I'm talking about lack of belief. I don't really see much of a difference between agnostics and atheists.
[/quote]

Agostics tend to not have an active belief in God, or claim not to know the truth. Atheists beleive that the is no God. Big difference there.

[Paphnutius]

Wow things have exploded into a mess since I have been on last.

Melchisedec, let us take your questions one at a time rather than tackeling something that comes much later down the line (papl infallibility) before something a bit more immediate (existence of God). You ask how can we believe something is Divinely Inspired?

Let us begin by asking why you chose not to believe in the existence of God. You have answered why you doubt the Bible, but have not answered for your doubt in God. I am just curious and this seems like a more logical place to start rather than with consequences of something before we have proven it.

I would also take issue with the comment that man is nothing but a terrible, no good beast without God. That is the Nietschze talking in you and you know that is not what Christianity holds to be true. While Christianity does posit that man has no good in himself apart from God, it does not assert that man has no dignity at all. It is quite the contrary. Christianity states that there is an enormeous amount of dignity being created imago Dei. That is why Christianity is so concerned about PRESERVING life. It does not say that man is a terrible wretch without God, but rather nothing would be at all without God.

[Victor]

[quote name='Melchisedec']I think our true nature is that one of love and wanting to be loved and accepted. [/quote]

Of course it is. But unfortuantely, in the non-theist world view I can't see how this can be accomplished. None of the atheist I have ever talked to have successfully and consistantly been able to define "evil" in the first place. How can you expect to get accepted if there is absolutely no mechanism to which an atheist can subribe to or even come to agree with in a societal type of population. Granted there is moral atheist and they seek to prove God thru the natural sciences only to search in vain. Nonetheless they seek what is right and true, but can't identify outside of themselves or their little circle or favorite book or whatever. There is nothing that can give hope to even define or agree on anything really. Why should their be? Nothing binds them. Recipe for chaos for a cosmo that appreciates order.

Peace In Christ

~Victor

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Paphnutius']I have already referred you to Romans 1:20.[/quote]

Yes, but that would mean all the atheists and agnostics know there is a God. Surely you don't believe that?

[Aloysius]

is there existence? God is existence. if there is existence, then what we refer to as "God" exists, because existence exists. it is the most clear and self-evident simplistic truth

you know existence exists. (unless you abscribe to a philisophic fallacy that nothing exists except what we think exists or that we're all part of a dream or something)

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Aloysius']is there existence? God is existence. if there is existence, then what we refer to as "God" exists, because existence exists. it is the most clear and self-evident simplistic truth[/quote]

How can it be clear when even the concept of existence's existence is incomprehensible? How can it be self-evident when God is obviously more than just existence?