About Atheism

[Semalsia]

"If the knowledge of a God is the most necessary, why is it not the most evident and the clearest?"
- Percy Bysshe Shelley


Why do you think it's so hard for some to see that there is a god? How do you explain it without a godless universe?

[philothea]

Well...

This probably isn't very charitable of me, but the athiests I have known have been very invested in the idea of there [i]not[/i] being a God. I don't know anyone who has given the possiblity of God a decent chance that didn't wind up religious.

[Paphnutius]

It is the most evident thing...Romans 1:20

20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

[Cow of Shame]

How is it that some atheists don't realize that atheism itself is a religion?

[Guest T-Bone]

All the atheists I know invest more effort in the belief that God doesn't exits than Christians invest in the blief that he does exist.

Agnostics I can respect...atheists are self appointed "intelectuals" who cannot support thier own arguements...

Edited November 3, 2005 by T-Bone

[Didacus]

1. It is evident that God exists.

2. Faith is a gift from God, and like all things, you have to take care of your gift or it gets waisted.

3. God choses the manners in which He reveals Himself. If we are closed minded, we will not see His presence when He does.

[Semalsia]

Oh you are saying that it isn't hard. Ok...

So all the atheist are simply lying about it? In denial? Or what?


[quote name='Cow of Shame']How is it that some atheists don't realize that atheism itself is a religion?[/quote]
Well I haven't realized that, so please do explain why atheism is a religion.

I know you are talking about the claim "there is no god". Why is this a unreasonable claim?


[quote name='T-Bone']atheists are self appointed "intelectuals" who cannot support thier own arguements...[/quote]

I wasn't aware that atheism needed any arguments. Why would it? It doesn't make any claims.

Yes, I'm talking about lack of belief. I don't really see much of a difference between agnostics and atheists.


[quote name='Didacus']It is evident that God exists.[/quote]

Why? It isn't evident to atheists.

[quote name='Didacus']If we are closed minded, we will not see His presence when He does.[/quote]

How is that possible? How is it possible not to see or hear God? You just said it was evident.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Semalsia

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='philothea' date='Nov 2 2005, 07:57 PM']Well...

This probably isn't very charitable of me, but the athiests I have known have been very invested in the idea of there [i]not[/i] being a God.  I don't know anyone who has given the possiblity of God a decent chance that didn't wind up religious.


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Thats really a slap in the face to many people. Alot of Atheist I know were believers for many years , myself included. Most of my life I was a believer and a fervent one at that. In fact my whole life I had wanted to be a monk , could you believe it. Knowledge led me to this position and its one that is honest to myself. Most atheist I know just didn't start out that way, they usually come from deeply religious backgrounds where God has been taken into extreme consideration.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Nov 3 2005, 12:03 AM']How is it that some atheists don't realize that atheism itself is a religion?
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It is not a religion. Thats just something theist like to say to upset Atheist. Like 'you believe in nothing'. Makes no sense at all.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='T-Bone' date='Nov 3 2005, 04:33 AM']All the atheists I know invest more effort in the belief that God doesn't exits than Christians invest in the blief that he does exist.
[/quote]

I can say that maybe Christians would open their eyes if they invested time in the idea that God doesn't exist. So I can throw the same thing as you have and label it 'ignorance'.


[quote]Agnostics I can respect.
[/quote]

How about an Agnostic Atheist?


[quote]self appointed "intelectuals" who cannot support thier own arguements...
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Sounds like the proponents for Intelligent Design.

[jezic]

You can prove God exists with Philosophy, it just takes a long time.

Umm.... question ..... if many atheists were believers at one time, what happened to them? Intelligence should lead to God because, as we believe, he is the source and the Creator and is thus intelligent.

Why would intelligence lead you to decide that God didn't exist?

[Brother Adam]

So....why are you an athiest then?

A guy a ran into here on campus recently came from a position of growing up Christian, becoming athiest, and then read texts of John Paul II on Fides et Ratio and found the answers he was convinced weren't out there.

[jezic]

i was thinking about Fides et Ratio as well.

Melchisedek and anyone else, have you read that type of stuff (Papal encyclicals)?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 3 2005, 09:47 AM']Thats really a slap in the face to many people. Alot of Atheist I know were believers for many years , myself included.  Most of my life I was a believer and a fervent one at that. In fact my whole life I had wanted to be a monk , could you believe it. Knowledge led me to this position and its one that is honest to myself. Most atheist I know just didn't start out that way, they usually come from deeply religious backgrounds where God has been taken into extreme consideration.
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Might I inquire what knowledge that was that led you to your current state of belief?

I would also recommend this thread uses the Summa for discussion here. It seems to work from empirical evidence.

Semalsia
[quote]I wasn't aware that atheism needed any arguments. Why would it? It doesn't make any claims.
[/quote]

Please clarify my misunderstanding, because I was quite convinced that atheism denied the existence of God, which is indeed a claim. It is quite possible that I am mistaken in what atheism holds true, but it must hold something true otherwise it is simply radical skepticism (the type that Sextus Empiricus held) which has been proven time and time again to be wrong.

So if atheism is not skepticism but does indeed hold something true, it must have demonstrations and definitions to defend it. In other words, it must have arguements in the philosophical sense.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Paphnutius']Please clarify my misunderstanding, because I was quite convinced that atheism denied the existence of God, which is indeed a claim.[/quote]

Some atheist do deny the existence of God and so need an argument for their claim. However, some atheists don't deny the existence of God, but simply don't believe in one. And that's pretty much what I'm talking in this thread. Everyone is born an atheist, because they can't believe in something they don't have knowledge of. It's a lack of views concerning God.

Everything else is extra.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Semalsia

[Semalsia]

[quote name='jezic']you can prove God exists with Philosophy, it just takes a long time.[/quote]

So now it is [b]hard[/b] again. And non-obvious.

I'll ask again:
Why is it hard? Why isn't it evident?

[philothea]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 3 2005, 09:47 AM']Thats really a slap in the face to many people. Alot of Atheist I know were believers for many years , myself included.  Most of my life I was a believer and a fervent one at that. In fact my whole life I had wanted to be a monk , could you believe it. Knowledge led me to this position and its one that is honest to myself. Most atheist I know just didn't start out that way, they usually come from deeply religious backgrounds where God has been taken into extreme consideration.
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I am sorry for that; I realized I sounded unkind -- however it has been my experience so far.

The formerly religious atheists I know (I don't really consider that I know you, except that I recognize your name here.) came from very rigid and/or very emotional religious backgrounds. That's just asking to be set up. God isn't "nice" in the way people want. And Christianity doesn't "make sense" like say, mathematics does. Expecting otherwise is always going to lead to an apparent contradiction. Nowhere does Catholicism promise to make your life all wonderful and happy. Nowhere does Catholicism promise to explain everything to you so you'll understand. Faith is dark, and the path is narrow and steep.

However, the experience I mentioned was that many people -- athiests especially -- do not seriously investigate the teachings of the Church because [i]if it turned out the Church was right[/i] they would either have to radically change their lifestyle, or undergo (perceived) public embarassment for having to retract what they'd said before. They are invested in God not existing. People do this in all fields of life. It's hardly unique.

I don't know anything about your lifestyle, but given your radio broadcasts, you may be personally invested in athiesm now?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jezic' date='Nov 3 2005, 09:55 AM']You can prove God exists with Philosophy, it just takes a long time.

Umm.... question ..... if many atheists were believers at one time, what happened to them? Intelligence should lead to God because, as we believe, he is the source and the Creator and is thus intelligent.

Why would intelligence lead you to decide that God didn't exist?
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I'll try to be as brief as I can. From the moment I was taught that there is a God, I was immediately drawn to it. I wanted to know everything I could about God and what my purpose in life was. It became my lifes work and I wanted to dedicate myself to becomming as close to God as humanly possible . Throughout the years I had taken in alot of information from the Bible and other christian writings. I would believe it usually because it just felt right or some other emotion deep inside. I never ever questioned the source. I thought, hey this is the Bible, right. The book of God - case closed. Doubts started to creep in my head when I was exposed to other beliefs. Some of these other beliefs I felt a deep connection with and really felt that people might be getting Gods plan all wrong. Namely, organizations.So I became a 'I just believe in God and try to live a good life type' of person. It wasn't until I started to deeply analyze why I believe in something that everything began to unravel. I started to ask myself, Who wrote this? How many of them wrote it? Why should I believe they were inspired by God? Whos right and whos wrong? Why isn't there evidence? What is faith? Did any of this happen? Just to name a few.

So its not like I sought out to descredit the bible or any other religious texts. My journey in learning more about them led me away from it all. Because when it was all said and done I didnt find God. I found man. It was hard to come to grips with it but I did and alot of other people have. It makes me sick that people just say that we never ever really invested into the idea of God. Some of us lived most of our lives for God.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Nov 3 2005, 10:56 AM']Some atheist do deny the existence of God and so need an argument for their claim. However, some atheists don't deny the existence of God, but simply don't believe in one. And that's pretty much what I'm talking in this thread. Everyone is born an atheist, because they can't believe in something they don't have knowledge of. It's a lack of views concerning God.

Everything else is extra.
[/quote]

I am not sure it is possible to not believe, or to refuse to believe in something and yet not assert a claim that it does not exist. For instance, if I do not believe X, it then becomes a presupposition for all of my behavior. My behavior then exibits a denial of the reality of X for I act in accord to what I believe and will shape how I act in respect to presuppositions. Is that clear? If I do not think that X is real, my behavior will come to reflect a denial of that, asserting a claim if you will.

So some athiests then admit that there could be a God, but suspend judgment on the topic? That sounds a lot like the skepticism that I mentioned earlier.

[quote]So now it is hard again. And non-obvious.

I'll ask again:
Why is it hard? Why isn't it evident?[/quote] I have already referred you to Romans 1:20. Also, philsophy works from what is evident. Nemo dat quod non habet.

And Melchisedec, you found doubt because you believe there lacked suffecient back up or evidence for Divine Inspiration? Or was it more of a lack of answers to some of the more difficult questions that lead you away from the faith? And a bit more personal question if you do not mind me asking, why are you on a Catholic forum then?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='philothea' date='Nov 3 2005, 11:14 AM']  And Christianity doesn't "make sense" like say, mathematics does.  Expecting otherwise is always going to lead to an apparent contradiction
[/quote]

I am curious as to why it doesn't make sense? How could I understand it then?

[quote]However, the experience I mentioned was that many people -- athiests especially -- do not seriously investigate the teachings of the Church because [i]if it turned out the Church was right[/i] they would either have to radically change their lifestyle, or undergo (perceived) public embarassment for having to retract what they'd said before. They are invested in God not existing.  People do this in all fields of life.  It's hardly unique.
[/quote]

I hear that argument alot . That essentially people don't want to believe in God because they would have to alter their lifestyle. I've been told that the reason I am Atheist is because I want to lead an immoral life. I mean thats so insulting. I think maybe in some cases it might be true and I will acknowledge that. Yet I see homosexuals who believe in God wholeheartedly. Even in the midst of continuing to lead their 'lifestyle' and knowing that they are essentially damned. You would think they would just reject God. I see usually people bending beliefs to suit their own agendas than flat out rejecting the idea of God altogether. I mean I don't encounter many Atheist in my life. Yet I encounter people who believe in God without a doubt and tend to live their life as they please.


[quote]I don't know anything about your lifestyle, but given your radio broadcasts, you may be personally invested in athiesm now?
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I am pretty involved with atheism now but I don't do it as Im part of a team against another team. I am a knowledge seeker and I like to research these topics continually. Infidelguy is a place were the two sides explore the issues. I know some good friends that are very brilliant christian philosophers and we enjoy discussing the issues and getting a new perspective on things.