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Chiquitunga

The Discalced Carmelite Nuns - 1990 & 1991 Constitutions

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HeavenlyCalling
I am not really sure what a 'rich' convent would be considered, I have never really heard of that, all though I was a little surprised to see how many convents have things like TV's and stuff. But :idontknow:

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Marieteresa
Iam just wondering what you guys think about some Carmels being advised against using the internet by priests and confessors. I don't know if there is a trend following this (meaning most of the Carmels using the 1990 and 91 constitutions dont have internet) Just wondering what you guys think.

Also there is a such thing as a "rich" convent...If a convent can afford a 5 star chef for example It might be a rich convent. ok Iam going to get off my soap box now.

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Chiquitunga
[quote name='Sr. Mary Catharine' post='1178788' date='Jan 28 2007, 05:22 PM']
Poor Clares I know have told me that they have too many meetings and not much gets accomplished.[/quote] I actually didn't know any of the Poor Clares had federation meetings. I sort of always thought they couldn't because they do have the solemn vow of enclosure, while I know the Carmelites do not have that vow in particular.

Which Poor Clare federation has meetings? Does the PCCs Federation of Mary Immaculate have federation meetings?

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Sr Mary Catharine OP

I actually didn't know any of the Poor Clares had federation meetings. I sort of always thought they couldn't because they do have the solemn vow of enclosure, while I know the Carmelites do not have that vow in particular.

Which Poor Clare federation has meetings? Does the PCCs Federation of Mary Immaculate have federation meetings?


Yes, they do every year and they were the first federation formed in the US, way back in the '50's.

Papal Enclosure is observed according to the norms of the Holy See and this includes egress for reasons such as Federation meetings. Verbi Sponsa also legislates for common novitiate formation among the same monasteries of an Order, etc.

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Chiquitunga
[quote name='Sr. Mary Catharine' post='1179883' date='Jan 29 2007, 09:44 PM']
Yes, they do every year and they were the first federation formed in the US, way back in the '50's.

Papal Enclosure is observed according to the norms of the Holy See and this includes egress for reasons such as Federation meetings. Verbi Sponsa also legislates for common novitiate formation among the same monasteries of an Order, etc.
[/quote] Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I do remember reading something about federations in [i]Verbi Sponsa[/i], so I'll have to read it again. I just had the idea that Poor Clares didn't have meetings outside the enclosure. Thanks for clarifying this. I hope their meetings become more fruitful, like the Dominicans.


Do you know if Mother Angelica's PCPAs go out for annual meetings? Also, do you know about the Federation of Mary Immaculate of the PCCs. I will ask the ones here in Lemont, too.

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Chiquitunga
But I wanted to ask forgiveness for saying anything negative about the St. Louis Carmel , because it really is a lovely place and the sisters were so incredibly nice in welcoming me there. Their monastery is beautiful too. I am just an outsider, so I really don't know. Again, I would ask other good Carmels and go there for yourself.

Here I am going to post something I said in the Britain's Youngest Carmelite thread, here:
 

Hey, that's great! I visited that Carmel and really liked it there. I thought the adoration and the beautiful chapel were amesome!

I just want to say a big sorry to all, if I've been rather annoying at times with my talking so much about the 1990/1991 Constitutions. No one said anything, I just thought this to myself. I just wanted to share this information with everyone, as it's a pretty big piece of recent Carmelite history among the nuns. But really St. Louis is a great community! Again, the special thing about their adoration is so great - to have a true Carmel, but also a lot of adoration.

They have a beautiful old chapel and monastery. Actually I don't believe their adoration is perpetual, (someone mentioned this before) but from 7 am - 8 pm daily, which is a lot! I talked for a while with a sister there from RI, Sr. Mary Grace. She was a very inspiring, and fervent soul! They make the most beautiful looking Christmas enrollment cards that I've ever seen! Each one is handmade and they're incredibly old-fashioned looking. I'm sure they make other enrollment cards too. If you ask them, they'll show you a display of all their different cards. They also harvest honey, and sell it there (the Srs of St. John do too, in Princeville happy.gif )

I just found a new site of their's. They had a different one, but maybe this is their new one - Carmel of St. Joseph in St. Louis, MO

And here are a couple scans of postcards from there:

carmelofstjosephyj2.jpg
The public & private sides of the church with expostition.

birdseyecarmelir7.jpg

And an aerial view, wow!

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Chiquitunga

But actually, this Carmel is not as traditional in a few other ways also, though they wear the full habit. But really, I don't know for certain, as I've never lived as a Carmelite nun there. But in little things that I mentioned before, and I think they do not observe the silence as strictly. I remember the Novice Mistress telling me that if they are both working in the kitchen for instance, they will talk, whereas a Carmel like Buffalo is much different.

But, please forgive me, I could be off about this. Maybe it is just that they are allowed to talk to each other when needed to help in work, for example. Whereas I remember in Buffalo it was really very strict about this. Another sister was trying to tell me that confessions are now being heard, and tried with a few hand signals, and then went to the bookshelf to show me a book, and then I understood what she was saying. But I think this is really a good thing .. They are of course allowed to say something in different instances outside recreation .. like in formation and different things ..

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Chiquitunga

Iam just wondering what you guys think about some Carmels being advised against using the internet by priests and confessors. I don't know if there is a trend following this (meaning most of the Carmels using the 1990 and 91 constitutions dont have internet) Just wondering what you guys think.

I'd say it'd be a good idea for those Carmels being advised against using the internet to follow their advice. I think it's nice when a community has a website though, or is featured on the IRL site, so people can see the monastery and read about them, for discernment.

But I'm really of the opinion that a lot of times the old fashioned way of writing & calling, and visiting the place, is the way to go. It's nice to be able to see a few pictures on the web though, if you're considering a far away place ..

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Sr Mary Catharine OP

Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I do remember reading something about federations in Verbi Sponsa, so I'll have to read it again. I just had the idea that Poor Clares didn't have meetings outside the enclosure. Thanks for clarifying this. I hope their meetings become more fruitful, like the Dominicans.
Do you know if Mother Angelica's PCPAs go out for annual meetings? Also, do you know about the Federation of Mary Immaculate of the PCCs. I will ask the ones here in Lemont, too.


Yes, the Federation of Mary Immaculate is the first federation formed in the US. You can read about their first meeting in "No Strange God's Before Me" by Mother Mary Francis (back in the late '50s). They have a yearly meeting at their different monasteries and elect a federal prioress.

A Federation/Association is free to determine the extent of participation, meetings, etc. Again, not only are federations encouraged by the Holy See but Verbi Sponsa spells out rather clearly that Federation meetings for the purpose of mutual aid and theological formation of the member monasteries is not contrary to enclosure. Enclosure is not an end but a means.

Actually, with email and internet a lot more can be done without leaving the enclosure than before we had this technology. It really has helped the spirit and living of enclosure.

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alicemary
I believe silence is a good thing, so not to disturb the other sisters, but I think being so strict about it is a little ridiculous. Not to be able to tell you it was time for confession, and doing that pantomine thing is just being a little over board.
As to the internet, what is wrong with the internet? There is many good sites that would benefit a nun in her study. The convenience of email, with specific guidelines, to check on a ailing parent. I think some percieve nuns as cut off from the world totally, and being closed up in a greenhouse without any concerns. Who would want to live behind walls and just be concerned with yourself. It is not that way. You are there to pray for the world, to take the concerns of the world to the Lord.
Nuns without internet sites, without aspirancy programs are drying up. Look at the poplular orders, OLAM, Nashville etc, they use the internet to the hilt. Take advantage of every little site to advertise their orders. Now, I do not totally agree with their methods, but it seems to be successful in the short run.

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HisChild

Iam just wondering what you guys think about some Carmels being advised against using the internet by priests and confessors. I don't know if there is a trend following this (meaning most of the Carmels using the 1990 and 91 constitutions dont have internet) Just wondering what you guys think.

Also there is a such thing as a "rich" convent...If a convent can afford a 5 star chef for example It might be a rich convent. ok Iam going to get off my soap box now.


I greatly enjoying being able to view religious communities online, without having to wait to receive the information in the mail, which, depending on the community did or did not come, or sometimes arriving months after the inquiry! I think having a site up that shows the lives of the sisters, and perhaps even pics of the various sisters at investiture, entrance, vows, etc. is a great resource for familes and friends that can't be there during those events. It's also a blessing for those who are discerning, being able to reach a large amount of people with relatively little expense, compared to creating and printing brochures.

As to the email, I'm not sure what my opinion is. While it's also a good tool to have email for the sisters, especially for inquirers, I don't think email is necessary. I know the Sisters of Life are growing as well, but while they have a web site, they don't correspond via email even for vocational inquiries. It's funny because when I told my family that I would be entering the monastery, but wouldn't have access to email, one family member even told me that, because I don't have email, I shouldn't expect that he would write! I think so many people are so used to corresponding this way, they've lost their experience with 'snail mail'. But there's something to be said about written an old fashioned letter.

With email, as with all else on the internet, it can quickly get out of control. I have often written a community, and then kept up a correspondence for a short time, only to have my emails responded to in short order. There's a danger for the religious, especially for the contemplative religious, (just as there is that danger to ANY person) to be online too much. So, in my opinion, if they are going to allow the internet in their community, I really think there needs to be some regulations involved, otherwise that beast (meaning email and the internet) can surely take over. There are some reading this who might be thinking 'they're all adults, they can regulate themselves', and perhaps you're right, but I've met quite a few internet addicts out there, and at one time I was one of them. . .it's like the TV, you can turn it on, just to see what's on, and the next thing you know, 5 hours have passed, and you can't remember what you watched! You can sign online and do a little surfing and next thing you know, it's time for bed, and you haven't prayed. It's a real problem in today's society. We have a priest at our parish that likes to give out penances (at least he says this in his homilies) of 'no internet time for such and such a period of time', for those who have problems with it.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great tool, but truly, it is something that can quickly and inadvertently become abused, even among the most responsible of people.
 

Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I do remember reading something about federations in Verbi Sponsa, so I'll have to read it again. I just had the idea that Poor Clares didn't have meetings outside the enclosure. Thanks for clarifying this. I hope their meetings become more fruitful, like the Dominicans.
Do you know if Mother Angelica's PCPAs go out for annual meetings? Also, do you know about the Federation of Mary Immaculate of the PCCs. I will ask the ones here in Lemont, too.


When you say Mother Angelica's PCPAs, I'm going to lump all three communities in with them, AL, AZ, and OH. Last year, as Lauren can attest, they had a meeting in AL of all the PCPAs. So, there were nuns from all the monasteries, traveling to AL for this meeting. Those from OH went, (and also were there to be on EWTN), I think AZ sisters didn't go because they'd just been there, but don't quote me, and of course there were nuns from the other various PCPA communities in the country. So, yes, for certain reasons, they do travel for meetings. While the AL nuns didn't leave this year, who's to say that next meeting time, they won't be the ones doing the traveling too?

As to the silence, I can say little except to say that when I was in the monastery, we were supposed to be a lot more silent than we were, and I found myself craving that silence. I wish we were more strict. While some of the gestures might be silly, I wouldn't mind some of them, so that, if I was praying, walking down a hallway, I could still keep that internal silence, while communicating something simple to my fellow sister. Of course, if it were something more complex, or something that required speaking, that would be different, you know? Just my ten cents.

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shortnun
[quote name='HisChild' post='1180245' date='Jan 30 2007, 10:16 AM']
As to the email, I'm not sure what my opinion is. While it's also a good tool to have email for the sisters, especially for inquirers, I don't think email is necessary. I know the Sisters of Life are growing as well, but while they have a web site, they don't correspond via email even for vocational inquiries. It's funny because when I told my family that I would be entering the monastery, but wouldn't have access to email, one family member even told me that, because I don't have email, I shouldn't expect that he would write! I think so many people are so used to corresponding this way, they've lost their experience with 'snail mail'. But there's something to be said about written an old fashioned letter.
[/quote]
In the last newsletter I received from the Sisters of Life both the VD and her assistant (their name escape me at this time) had email addresses listed!

I think email/internet can be a great way to evangelize and spread the good news, as well as a slippery slope that distracts us from the greater (greatest!) good.

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HisChild
[quote name='shortnun' post='1180464' date='Jan 30 2007, 12:30 PM']
In the last newsletter I received from the Sisters of Life both the VD and her assistant (their name escape me at this time) had email addresses listed!

I think email/internet can be a great way to evangelize and spread the good news, as well as a slippery slope that distracts us from the greater (greatest!) good.
[/quote]


Wow! I wonder how new that is?! They used to say, I was told, that they wouldn't be using email. Well, there must be a good reason, yes? God bless.

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Chiquitunga
[quote name='Sr. Mary Catharine' post='1180205' date='Jan 30 2007, 08:37 AM']
Yes, the Federation of Mary Immaculate is the first federation formed in the US. You can read about their first meeting in "No Strange God's Before Me" by Mother Mary Francis (back in the late '50s). They have a yearly meeting at their different monasteries and elect a federal prioress.

A Federation/Association is free to determine the extent of participation, meetings, etc. Again, not only are federations encouraged by the Holy See but Verbi Sponsa spells out rather clearly that Federation meetings for the purpose of mutual aid and theological formation of the member monasteries is not contrary to enclosure. Enclosure is not an end but a means.

Actually, with email and internet a lot more can be done without leaving the enclosure than before we had this technology. It really has helped the spirit and living of enclosure.
[/quote] Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I do remember this being said in [i]Verbi Sponsa[/i]. Yeah, I know a few of the PCC communities in the Federation of MI that are great like Lemont, Belleville, and Los Altos Hills. I'll ask the Chicago Poor Clares next time I go there about how many sisters go out at a time and everything. But yeah, I think it's great for different communities to be united in this way. And the few Mary Immaculate PCCs I'd read about, all seem to be outstanding in living the charism and everything ..

But regarding the OCD nuns, I wouldn't say it was a bad thing for them to be able to keep the old constitutions, with a few changes after VII, that were approved by the Holy Father in 1990. I remember reading in the history of the Buffalo Carmel book, that they prayed an awful lot for this intention up until 1990. I do really respect their views on this, and really liked all the 1990 communities I visited.

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