[angry] With God

[Maggyie]

You are in my prayers GodChild

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1336756' date='Jul 21 2007, 08:28 PM']I have left Church and haven't been to Mass for a week now. It feels strangely liberating not having to listen to perpetual crucifixion anymore. I go to the beach or lake instead, or watch the mountains behind my home and the sun rising and setting over them ... I can see God there and I can see he is NOT perpetually dying.[/quote]

Wow. I decide to poke my head in at Phatmass and look what I find.

I understand you. I have never been abused by an officer of any particular church, but I know suffering. Trust me on that one.

Look - GodChild. I'm marked 'Non-Catholic' for a reason. I'm no friend of the Roman Catholic Church, but I'll tell you someting, if you're willing to listen.

You're right when you say that God is not perpetually dying. Christians don't worship a dead god, nor a god whose sacrifice was insufficent and needs to be repeated. Instead, we worship a God whose sacrifice was offered once-for-all, [i]sufficent[/i], perfect, lacking nothing. I like to hope most people here would agree with me on that. And the God of Christianity is the God who became a human being, who suffered, died, in the stead of poor sinners. He isn't dead - he [i]lives[/i]! That's what we celebrate on Easter Sunday. That God, from the (seemingly) senseless tragedy of Deicide (the murder of God Incarnate), somehow, mysteriously, dealt the crushing blow to evil on the Cross, 'making a public spectacle' of it' (Colossians 2:15) by rising from the dead.

The bottom line of it all is that the God I worship, the Lord Jesus Christ, sits in heaven and bears scars on His hands and feet and the imprint of thorns in His brow, for sinners just like you, and even as wicked as me. For all our pain, for all our suffering, for all our sin. All that is required is repentant faith, receiving and trusting that He is able and willing to save, and he will save.

[center]Come, ye sinners, poor and wretched!
Weak and wounded, sick and sore!
Jesus ready stands to save you!
Full of pity joined with power

He is able
He is able
[b]He is willing[/b], doubt no more![/center]

I do not know if my words help you at all. Perhaps I was led to investigate this forum after a long hiatus (actually, I believe Dust banned me, for what reason I forget, and it's really immaterial now) for a reason. I pray my words edify you.

Grace and peace to you,
Ryan Hill
rwhill@uvic.ca

[GodChild]

[quote name='ICTHUS' post='1337310' date='Jul 22 2007, 09:47 PM']Wow. I decide to poke my head in at Phatmass and look what I find.

I understand you. I have never been abused by an officer of any particular church, but I know suffering. Trust me on that one.

Look - GodChild. I'm marked 'Non-Catholic' for a reason. I'm no friend of the Roman Catholic Church, but I'll tell you someting, if you're willing to listen.

You're right when you say that God is not perpetually dying. Christians don't worship a dead god, nor a god whose sacrifice was insufficent and needs to be repeated. Instead, we worship a God whose sacrifice was offered once-for-all, [i]sufficent[/i], perfect, lacking nothing. I like to hope most people here would agree with me on that. And the God of Christianity is the God who became a human being, who suffered, died, in the stead of poor sinners. He isn't dead - he [i]lives[/i]! That's what we celebrate on Easter Sunday. That God, from the (seemingly) senseless tragedy of Deicide (the murder of God Incarnate), somehow, mysteriously, dealt the crushing blow to evil on the Cross, 'making a public spectacle' of it' (Colossians 2:15) by rising from the dead.

The bottom line of it all is that the God I worship, the Lord Jesus Christ, sits in heaven and bears scars on His hands and feet and the imprint of thorns in His brow, for sinners just like you, and even as wicked as me. For all our pain, for all our suffering, for all our sin. All that is required is repentant faith, receiving and trusting that He is able and willing to save, and he will save.

[center]Come, ye sinners, poor and wretched!
Weak and wounded, sick and sore!
Jesus ready stands to save you!
Full of pity joined with power

He is able
He is able
[b]He is willing[/b], doubt no more![/center]

I do not know if my words help you at all. Perhaps I was led to investigate this forum after a long hiatus (actually, I believe Dust banned me, for what reason I forget, and it's really immaterial now) for a reason. I pray my words edify you.

Grace and peace to you,
Ryan Hill
rwhill@uvic.ca[/quote]

They do, very much so. I'm quiet sure that Jesus is the truth, I am in the present time, just not sure if the Catholic Church is the truth (or my understanding of the Church). I come from a hell-fire and brimstone background - one that I am tired of, and I found myself in a church were I was being abused, depressed, miserable and suicidal - eventually I rebelled ... i believe the words I used in my very first msg was that I was 'raging' against everything, and honestly with little concern whether I'll go to hell or not ... cause I already was in hell! (the way I saw it)

Your words have cast a light over the shadows I'm dealing with now ... I am so happy to hear someone say 'life' ... and implicitly VICTORY : That made me feel good. Thankyou.

[GodChild]

[quote name='Brigid' post='1336255' date='Jul 21 2007, 05:38 PM']GodChild,
I just wanted you to know that you have my prayers, and the prayers of our Blessed Mother ('cause I asked her to pray for you... but she was probably praying for you before I asked). I dont' have any words of wisdom... just a hug and prayers. hope they help.

*bighug*

[/quote]

Thankyou :

[GodChild]

[quote name='Brigid' post='1336255' date='Jul 21 2007, 05:38 PM']GodChild,
I just wanted you to know that you have my prayers, and the prayers of our Blessed Mother ('cause I asked her to pray for you... but she was probably praying for you before I asked). I dont' have any words of wisdom... just a hug and prayers. hope they help.

*bighug*

[/quote]

Thankyou :

[phatcatholic]

GodChild,

These articles may be of interest to you:

-- [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=579&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=33619"]Christ Has Won a Splendid Victory[/url]
-- [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=961&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=33619"]The Cross Is Victory and Salvation[/url]
-- [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=2750&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=33619"]Rejoice in Christ's Victory Over Death[/url]
-- [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=3398&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=33619"]Cross of Christ Is Guarantee of Victory[/url]
-- [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=4132&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=33619"]Sing to the Lord, for He Is Triumphant[/url]

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

[Peccator]

You know what...I know I can never understand what you are going through, I can merely say I may have a very good idea.

In the last month, my mother died leaving me with my 12 year old brother to raise. If not bad enough my company is also in the process of downsizing...meaning I have a very good chance to loose my job...and then just when things where at their worst my fiance left me for someone else.

Even as I'm sitting here, I have to keep myself from crying...at this moment I've never felt more alone or deserted in my life.

It is human to seek someone or something to blame. The fact of the matter is, its not always that simple. I do not believe your grudge against God is based on bad clergy, but on passed experience...I may be wrong in assuming that off course.

Do not let the world keep you on your knees, fight the good fight. This feeling of peace/freedom will not last, eventually it will be replaced by an emptiness and a fear I'm unable to describe.

Brother (assuming off course you're male) though I'm more than a few thousand miles away, I'm thinking of you and your struggle.

Edited July 23, 2007 by Peccator

[Maggyie]

Reading the text of the Exultet may also be helpful... Sorry if this seems like a dumb idea, but it is something that has helped me...

Rejoice, heavenly powers! Sing, choirs of angels!
Exult, all creation around God's throne!
Jesus Christ, our King, is risen!
Sound the trumpet of salvation!

Rejoice, O earth, in shining splendor,
radiant in the brightness of your King!
Christ has conquered! Glory fills you!
Darkness vanishes for ever!
Rejoice, O Mother Church! Exult in glory!
The risen Savior shines upon you!
Let this place resound with joy,
echoing the mighty song of all God's people!

My dearest friends,
standing with me in this holy light,
join me in asking God for mercy,

that he may give his unworthy minister
grace to sing his Easter praises.

Deacon: The Lord be with you.
People: And also with you.
Deacon: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord.
Deacon: Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
People: It is right to give him thanks and praise.

It is truly right
that with full hearts and minds and voices
we should praise the unseen God, the all-powerful Father,
and his only Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

For Christ has ransomed us with his blood,
and paid for us the price of Adam's sin to our eternal Father!

This is our passover feast,
when Christ, the true Lamb, is slain,
whose blood consecrates the homes of all believers.

This is the night
when first you saved our fathers:
you freed the people of Israel from their slavery
and led them dry-shod through the sea.

This is the night
when the pillar of fire destroyed the darkness of sin!

This is the night
when Christians everywhere,
washed clean of sin and freed from all defilement,
are restored to grace and grow together in holiness.

This is the night
when Jesus Christ broke the chains of death
and rose triumphant from the grave.

What good would life have been to us,
had Christ not come as our Redeemer?
Father, how wonderful your care for us!
How boundless your merciful love!
To ransom a slave you gave away your Son.

O happy fault,
O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!

Most blessed of all nights,
chosen by God to see Christ rising from the dead!

Of this night scripture says:
"The night will be as clear as day:
it will become my light, my joy."

The power of this holy night dispels all evil,
washes guilt away, restores lost innocence,
brings mourners joy;
it casts out hatred, brings us peace,
and humbles earthly pride.

Night truly blessed when heaven is wedded to earth
and man is reconciled with God!

Therefore, heavenly Father,
in the joy of this night,
receive our evening sacrifice of praise,
your Church's solemn offering.

Accept this Easter candle,
a flame divided but undimmed,
a pillar of fire that glows to the honor of God.

(For it is fed by the melting wax,
which the mother bee brought forth
to make this precious candle.)

Let it mingle with the lights of heaven
and continue bravely burning
to dispel the darkness of this night!

May the Morning Star which never sets
find this flame still burning:
Christ, that Morning Star,
who came back from the dead,
and shed his peaceful light on all mankind,
your Son, who lives and reigns for ever and ever.

Amen.

[farglefeezlebut]

[quote name='XIX' post='1334666' date='Jul 19 2007, 04:51 PM']If you mean moving to a different parish, then I agree with that. But if you mean moving from the Catholic Church, then I don't think that is going to help.[/quote]

To clarify, I meant move parishes. Please try to find a good parish where you will be treated with kindness. Yopu need God so badly, and mass is where He will give Himself to you in the deepest and fullest way. Find a new, safe parish as soon as possible. Meanwhile, keep praying. Praying is beautiful and full of God. God loves you. Trust Him. He will keep you safe.

*hugs and prayers*

[ICTHUS]

Others have done a good job replying. Phatcatholic, thanks for linking to those sermons (I'm assuming they were sermons). I had no idea that the late Pope John Paul II preached like that, though I'd read a few of his writings.

I was thinking about you on the way home from work on the bus today, Godchild, while reading N.T. Wrights [i]Evil and the Justice of God[/i].

I was reminded of a sermon I heard on podcast awhile ago. The Rev. Kevin Twit, pastor of Belmont University's Reformed University Fellowship. Likely one of the most powerful sermons I have ever heard, preached on John 11, round about the time leading up to Holy Week (Kevin Twit is a Presbyterian, who do celebrate the church year). He quotes a poem written by a World War I poet, Edward Shillito. If you want, email me (email above) and I'll send you the .mp3 of the sermon, as it's well worth listening to, but what I really wanted to share with you was the text of Shillito's poem.

Edward Shillito was an English Free Church minister, and wrote at a time when Europe was ravaged by the horrors of a bloody war. Looking at the bloodshed around him, he penned this poem: with the knowledge that the blood and suffering of Jesus teach us that he [i]knows[/i] our pain.

[center][b]Jesus of the Scars[/b]
[i]by Edward Shillito[/i]

If we have never sought, we seek Thee now;
Thine eyes burn through the dark, our only stars;
We must have sight of thorn-pricks on Thy brow,
We must have Thee, O Jesus of the Scars.

The heavens frighten us; they are too calm;
In all the universe we have no place.
Our wounds are hurting us; where is the balm?
Lord Jesus, by Thy Scars, we claim Thy grace.

If, when the doors are shut, Thou drawest near,
Only reveal those hands, that side of Thine;
We know to-day what wounds are, have no fear,
Show us Thy Scars, we know the countersign.

The other gods were strong; but Thou wast weak;
They rode, but Thou didst stumble to a throne;
But to our wounds only God's wounds can speak,
And not a god has wounds, but Thou alone.[/center]

It sounds as though you can resonate with the second stanza. "Our wounds are hurting us, where is the balm?". Take comfort, and likewise take heed, for no other god, no other philosophy, can speak directly to the pained human heart than the very God who stumbled in agony to a throne of glory.

[center]And to our wounds [b]only God's wounds can speak[/b],
And not a god has wounds, but Thou alone![/center]

Peace of Christ to you,
~Ryan

Edited July 24, 2007 by ICTHUS

[GodChild]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1333044' date='Jul 18 2007, 01:06 PM']Dear GodChild,

I was just reminded of this thread reading a recent Q&A at the Catholic Answers Forum. It's a bit off topic, but related, regarding suffering and God's Love.

Suffering is probably [i]the[/i] most difficult subject in Catholicism, at least I find it so. It is easy to talk about it theologically, but actually experiencing it is a whole other story.

[url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=168791"]How does one explain the necessity of Christ´s crucifixion in light of an all-loving God?[/url]
God bless!

Margaret[/quote]

Thanks for the link to the forum. It's a good forum on Catholic issues ... but those explanations don't make sense to me

[GodChild]

I'm feeling low today, all over again. I've gone to my Dr and he's directed me back to the only saviour I have ever known - meds LOL

[quote]for no other god, no other philosophy, can speak directly to the pained human heart than the very God who stumbled in agony to a throne of glory.[/quote] - part of the reason why I'm angry with Him is that he doesn't say anything - he is just silent, as if he's not there

question: Why doesn't he speak to me? I have gone to Church every Sunday, confession, the Eucharist, prayed and done one devotion ... then another ... then another ... tried Mary (she's npot there), tried the saints (their not there either) ... even tried St Jude, the patron of impossible cases ... and nothing. Not a word. ???

[tojo]

Oh, Godchild, Mother Mary and the Saints are there, I assure you. I'm sure they are. I find them a bit harder to hear than Jesus though, of course, I used to be Protestant, so I'm more used to listening for Him, so that might explain that somewhat.

Perhaps they just haven't answered the way you've been looking for?

Perhaps it is because of their intercession to our Lord that you still manage to have any strength to go on at all?

The Lord speaks to us in many ways though, some are less spectacular than others though. One of the less supernatural ways is thru the words of our fellow-believers.

Are you listening? Jesus says He loves you. It's a simple message I know, but one that always bears repeating. He loves you.

His Word tells me so, that is how I know.

This way isn't any less real than any other other supernatural sort of way, in fact it is more so, because it comes from an objective source, the inspired Word of God, rather than from my subjective understanding of the Holy Spirit's promptings.

[farglefeezlebut]

(hug) Maybe God id helping you in ways you cannot get see.

He brought you to this place, where people are helping you.

[GodChild]

[quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1339508' date='Jul 24 2007, 08:45 PM'](hug) Maybe God id helping you in ways you cannot get see.

He brought you to this place, where people are helping you.[/quote]

Yes, sorry, I don't mean to be ungrateful to people ... thankyou to everyone who has been kind to me through this hard time

Yet the fact remains that no matter what I think or tell myself, or what words I hear ... inside I no longer believe Him ... It feels like its gone, like it snapped ... but it doesn't matter cause I know I'll be alright without the 'Christ' - I have found something else, that is making me happy and I want to spend my time on a god who loves me .... not one who would rather die than just be with me.

My experinence and knowledge of Christ is just not the 'loving' God you guys speak of .... maybe we are talking about different Gods? Maybe the one i know is completely different to yours .... you speak of love, trust and friendship - but all I have to speak of is betrayal, abandonment and condemnation - the Christ I know is a very judgemental one .... hey it doesn't matter, your probably tired of it and I too am getting tired of it

I want to LIVE ... and not feel guilty and ashamed of wanting to Live.

I went to a priest (last Friday) to speak with Him - and he spoke to me about a father-mother-it God/goddess, the Bible is not to be taken literally and differnt people have different ideas of God but all lead to God. He recommended I leave the Church and come back when I feel like it - and for some strange reason I did not like hearing that, though I thought its what I wanted to hear ARGH! (lots of frustration lol) .... I have decided not to speak, and bluntly, stay clear of clergy from now on .... cause if its not hellfire and brimstone, its abuse, or its hippy "take your pick from the religion smorgasboard" ...... maybe its just true of the area I am in

hey sorry about how long the post it.