The Problems Of Time And Eternity

[kafka]

[i]No. You imply (although it may not have been intentional) that there is one eternal act; indeed, this seems to be a solution - but only for those who wish to violate the teaching that the universe is not eternal, but rather was created from nothing at a beginning point. If God's act of creation were eternal, so would be the creation.[/i]
no. I was speaking about the Act of God as being One, Divine, and Eternal. If this wasnt the case then God would continually be making seperate Acts of creation, thus dividing and limiting him into a sort of time.

For time is the ordering and seperation of into a fixed sequence of before and after. If God was not One Divine Eternal Act then, then he would be reduced into Time which is impossible. At one point He would Act by creating the stars, then He would Act again and create the earth, etc. This is impossible since He is One and Eternal, Uncreated, with no beginning, no end, no before and no after.

Eternity is beyond Time and Place. Creation by its very definition is not Eternal and always seperate and lower than God since it always has a beginning. And so God is able to create all that ever was or will be created in One Divine Act since He is Eternity meaning beyond Time and Place or Timeless and Placeless.

[i]For those in Heaven, sure (in regards to the experience of freedom). I would suggest that they (saints & angels) would necessarily experience some other dimension of time in which the whole of creation history is perhaps like one long film strip from their perspective, each "frame" (moment & space) able to be studied. Yet, this does not answer the question regarding movement / action within eternity; it begs it. For the whole problem is that eternity is changeless; a motionless "now" - and even that seems inadequate to describe the absolute stillness suggested, for terms such as "now" and "stillness" only make sense with a frame of reference, presupposing surrounding time.[/i]

I am confused with what type of an answer you are looking for. Are we speaking of the Eternity of God? or the eternal nature of Heaven, angels and men?

Yesterday I meant to ask you what you mean by movement or motion within eternity.

Edited October 17, 2008 by kafka

[Ziggamafu]

"Movement" or "motion" within eternity is meant to express separate actions of thought or deed. Yet as you said, for God to be eternal, there could be no such separation. But if the act of creation is eternal, how then can it be argued that the creation is itself [i]not [/i]eternal without violating the principles of logic (as logic, a divine quality, flows from the God who is Truth)? Indeed, all of the collection of God's acts (individually revealed to us in time, as recorded in Scripture and perceived in history), which must nevertheless be[i] one act[/i] if God is eternal, would entail the changes effected by the action(s). In other words, the act of Creation and, say, the act of sending the waters of the flood would (together being one eternal act) seem to, by necessity, involve the similar "eternity" of the effected "moments". If the action is eternal but the effect does not follow likewise, then it would seem that the action must not have, in fact, been eternal. [u]For we are not merely referring to a cause that, at any moment, could produce an effect; we are speaking of the [i]action [/i]of that cause, [i]effecting [/i]that effect.[/u] [b]If the action is eternal, therefore so must be the effect.[/b]

Which is heresy.

Hence the problem.

As we know that a) God exists and b) the universe began to exist and c) the Church cannot err, we must be able to lay out the logic of things, even if they cannot be fully understood. Which is why it seems the only way out is Apotheon's answer. God is not merely "eternal" but is greater than that which nothing greater can be imagined (that is, "greater" than the limits of imagination: the concepts of eternity and infinity).

Edited October 22, 2008 by Ziggamafu

[Guest Jon]

[color="#000080"][color="#000080"]Hi,

I am soo not as intellectual as you are -read: not as smart.

But may I ask - why did you write the Church cannot [i]err[/i]?

Do you really, really feel that? It was like seeing a fly on my
screen when I read that. Was that rude? Just relaying my
reaction.

Take care,[/color]Jon[/color]

[kafka]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1683364' date='Oct 22 2008, 08:00 AM']"Movement" or "motion" within eternity is meant to express separate actions of thought or deed. Yet as you said, for God to be eternal, there could be no such separation. But if the act of creation is eternal, how then can it be argued that the creation is itself [i]not [/i]eternal without violating the principles of logic (as logic, a divine quality, flows from the God who is Truth)? Indeed, all of the collection of God's acts (individually revealed to us in time, as recorded in Scripture and perceived in history), which must nevertheless be[i] one act[/i] if God is eternal, would entail the changes effected by the action(s). In other words, the act of Creation and, say, the act of sending the waters of the flood would (together being one eternal act) seem to, by necessity, involve the similar "eternity" of the effected "moments". If the action is eternal but the effect does not follow likewise, then it would seem that the action must not have, in fact, been eternal. [u]For we are not merely referring to a cause that, at any moment, could produce an effect; we are speaking of the [i]action [/i]of that cause, [i]effecting [/i]that effect.[/u] [b]If the action is eternal, therefore so must be the effect.[/b][/quote]
There is no doubt God is beyond anyway of explaining Him in mere human terms and concepts. So yes I would agree He is beyond the concepts of eternity and infinity. And I think this is where Philosophy, Theology, and even the Sacred Deposit of Faith is limited. Yes God created logic, yet the Truth remains He is beyond the ability of logic to fully explain Him. God is pure Act. He cannot be many acts hence He would be divided. The reason He can Act as One throughout all Time and Place is because He is beyond all Time and Place (Eternity). He is everywhere and everywhen since He is beyond everywhere and everywhen. He can cause an effect at any Time and Place since He is beyond all Time and all Place. He can cause effects at any moment since He is beyond all moments. He is present since He is beyond presence and beyond.

So He can create and cause effects in Time and Place without in any way being a part of that creation or that Time or that Place. God can create a soul in 2000 b.c. in the One and same Act of creating a soul in 2008 a.d. without comprosing the Oneness of His act since He is beyond all Time and Place. God is beyond the moments the two souls came into existance. And to say He is in anyway a part of Time, Place or even some lower dimension of eternity isnt true of course.

Now I see the point Apotheun suggested, but that would be a misnomer. To think that there is an eternity of moments goes against the very definition of eternity. So I think what might be happening is that philosophy or even theology cannot use its own rules to fully explain this. Ultimately it is a mystery beyond complete human comprehension as you suggested at the end. I just have a different way of explaining it.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Jon' post='1683455' date='Oct 22 2008, 11:33 AM'][color="#000080"][color="#000080"]Hi,

I am soo not as intellectual as you are -read: not as smart.

But may I ask - why did you write the Church cannot [i]err[/i]?

Do you really, really feel that? It was like seeing a fly on my
screen when I read that. Was that rude? Just relaying my
reaction.

Take care,[/color]Jon[/color][/quote]

The voice of Christ is heard in the Church; he has vested his own authority in the Magisterium when he says in Matthew 18:18 that the apostles (and by extension, their successors) have binding authority in union with the preeminent authority, already given in Matthew just two chapters prior, of Peter, who, because of the office Christ has given him, acts as the rock upon which all other Christians rest or stumble. The Lord sends out these offices as Messiah of the Davidic Kingdom - the everlasting Son of David - thereby retaining unity and order in the Church while he is directly, visibly absent at the Father's Right Hand.

When the office of Peter in isolation or the collective offices of the Apostles speaks with the full authority of Christ, we believe that the Holy Spirit by a singular miracle of grace prevents error from being universally bound upon the faithful. Thus doctrine and heresy be truly defined. These dogmas of the faith are found in every ecumenical council's canons (rules / proclamations) in which an anathema was attached to those who held the converse opinion. Dogmas are also found in papal pronouncements that invoke the authority of the papal office as binding on the universal Church, although it is possible (perhaps even likely) that the popes and bishops themselves did not know with clarity this full extent of the authority of St. Peter's successors.

It is true that bishops and popes, like all humans, can and do err. It is false that the Church as a universal Body errs; for that joins err with He who is the Head of that Body: Truth itself, in the flesh. And yes. I really, really believe that. With Augustine I can say that I would not believe the Gospel apart from the authority of the Catholic Church.

[Guest]

Great Great Great thread pham.
I am really enjoying this.
You are all really smart.
This is probally a dumb question considering what you have been debateing.
But, In eternity and heaven (praying that I make it there) will I be able to do certian activities and interact with certian people at certian stages of time ? (that is where im confused since there is no time yet doesnt the bible say that one day with God is like a 1000 years ? )
So is it possible we will have moments in heaven ?
It seems as if it were all blurred together in eternity we wouldnt be able to comprehend what is happening or be able to feel the intimacy of a relationship with someone ?
Since we would be everywhere at all moments and interacting with everything.
This question may not make any sence, but if it does and you have time for an answer I would appreciate it, Godlbess

[Guest Jon]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1684126' date='Oct 23 2008, 12:21 AM']Great Great Great thread pham.
I am really enjoying this.
You are all really smart.
This is probally a dumb question considering what you have been debateing.
But, In eternity and heaven (praying that I make it there) will I be able to do certian activities and interact with certian people at certian stages of time ? (that is where im confused since there is no time yet doesnt the bible say that one day with God is like a 1000 years ? )
So is it possible we will have moments in heaven ?
It seems as if it were all blurred together in eternity we wouldnt be able to comprehend what is happening or be able to feel the intimacy of a relationship with someone ?
Since we would be everywhere at all moments and interacting with everything.
This question may not make any sence, but if it does and you have time for an answer I would appreciate it, Godlbess[/quote]
[color="#000080"]
Dear Delivery Boy,

I don't believe anyone here is qualified to answer you. Where does it say we would be everywhere at all moments and interacting with everything? I must have missed something :)
Did someone say it above - I missed it.
Blurred together? - you will always be you - the individual, special little spark of God's creation - the creation wouldn't be the same without you --it would be like a thread in a tapestry gone. :)

I personally have been interested for years in NDEs (near death experiences) there are websites -google 'em...Dr. Raymond Moody,MD is a nice start because of his practice with children and how he started to notice similar stories from kids that died on the operatng table and were revived. They seemed to have the same sories of what happened "over there".

I buy copies at the used bookstores to have around for people like you asking about the afterlife. Oh, then there's Melvin Morse, MD. Sooo many books from people that were clinically dead for very long periods of time. My friend was dead after an accident and she followed the ambulance to the hospital where she was revived and put back into her wrecked, aching body.

Anyway, this isn't scriptural. But if it interests you there are many resources. I accidently found an entire section at the library - I was in the wrong aisle at the time ....or was I????
;)

God bless you,
Jon[/color]

Sorry, I don't mean to step on people's Biblical toes.

[kafka]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1684126' date='Oct 23 2008, 01:21 AM']Great Great Great thread pham.
I am really enjoying this.
You are all really smart.
This is probally a dumb question considering what you have been debateing.
But, In eternity and heaven (praying that I make it there) will I be able to do certian activities and interact with certian people at certian stages of time ? (that is where im confused since there is no time yet doesnt the bible say that one day with God is like a 1000 years ? )
So is it possible we will have moments in heaven ?
It seems as if it were all blurred together in eternity we wouldnt be able to comprehend what is happening or be able to feel the intimacy of a relationship with someone ?
Since we would be everywhere at all moments and interacting with everything.
This question may not make any sence, but if it does and you have time for an answer I would appreciate it, Godlbess[/quote]
It is a good question. In my opinion, though Heaven has a beginning, it was created outside of Time or before Time began and before Places existed. And Heaven is Timeless and Placeless since it is with God who is Eternity. So once the blessed enter Heaven, from a particular point in time (either after death on Earth or from Purgatory) they have always been in Heaven from its beginning. Therefore, if two friends die, one in 1998 and one in 2008 and they both make it to Heaven, the friend who died in 2008 will be there to welcome the friend in 1998 and vice versa.

The quote from the book of Psalms saying one day for God is like a 1000 years is a figure of speech referring to the Eternity of God.

I see where you are confused about things being blurred together, but remember the Blessed in Heaven will be given special abilities, and so they will be able to hold conversations with multiple people at one time. Time is actually a strange thing to be in Heaven is more normal since it is closer to God. Also despite being in Heaven the blessed are still limited finite creatures.

As far as feeling goes I am not sure if the Blessed in Heaven will possess feeling until after the general resurrection when they are re-united with their bodies. After the general resurrection the First Heaven and First Earth pass away and God makes a New Heaven and Earth fitting for both the body and soul of the Faithful. So yes of course close relationships will be possible with feelings, etc. (not sex though). Also, I think God will permit the Blessed to descend down to the New Earth, where their will be animals.

Who can say what God has planned?

Edited October 23, 2008 by kafka