The Problems Of Time And Eternity

[Didacus]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1572314' date='Jun 15 2008, 08:40 PM']A similar problem with this, and maybe Did's post will help resolve this. If God is 'within' eternity, at what point did God begin creating the world. Obviously there is a problem here; In a timeless eternity we have creation beginning.

Unless of course God is 'always' creating.[/quote]

There was not point in time when God created the world - THERE IS NO TIME IN ETERNITY.

As God created the world, time began.

[CatherineM]

I find this very difficult for my mortal mind to visualize.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1572354' date='Jun 15 2008, 09:50 PM']There was not point in time when God created the world - THERE IS NO TIME IN ETERNITY.

As God created the world, time began.[/quote]

I get that there is no time in eternity. I get that.

Time is a measurement of change. Thus there is no change in eternity. If there is no change in eternity, how does God "start" creating the world from eternity? Thats the question.

[Didacus]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1572408' date='Jun 15 2008, 10:43 PM']I get that there is no time in eternity. I get that.

Time is a measurement of change. Thus there is no change in eternity. If there is no change in eternity, how does God "start" creating the world from eternity? Thats the question.[/quote]

There was no start nor end. He always has, always will and is still creawting the world.

I suppose as per Apo's link, I am in the 'eternalism' school of thought.

Time is a series of dots joined one to the other, but from the eternal stand point, all the dots are happening at once so that the history of the world as we know it is across all-time just one big mosaic that doesn't change, in which God is the unchanging element of the painting.
(that makes sense - rigth?)

[Apotheoun]

God is beyond both time and eterrnity. Nevertheless, both time and eternity are divine processions (proodos), which means that they are merely different ways of experiencing God.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1572282' date='Jun 15 2008, 10:04 PM']Can it be possible that eternity does not exist at all since it is a concept of negation; it is the absence of time?

Like darkness is the absence of light but does not exist as such.[/quote]

Sounds like a good way to putting it.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1572314' date='Jun 15 2008, 10:40 PM']A similar problem with this, and maybe Did's post will help resolve this. If God is 'within' eternity, at what point did God begin creating the world. Obviously there is a problem here; In a timeless eternity we have creation beginning.[/quote]

I believe you're still thinking of eternity as never-ending time, which is an oxymoron since time is part of creation and thus has a beginning and an end (just like the universe). Eternity has no time, so there's no "point" when God began to create. I'd almost say eternity is simply an adjective for God, for what else is there besides God and Creation?

[Ziggamafu]

I don't know...eternity still seems to equate to a prison, from which there can be no escape - to move, change, or act; e.g., creation - without violating one's own nature (if indeed eternity is a part of God's nature). "Frozen" in eternity, one would be unable to have a unique thought, let alone act, for there would be no "then" which could subsequently become "now", whether in thought (reflection) or in deed (action).

The best explanation seems to remain that God is "beyond" eternity and infinity (but then, wouldn't it be errant to refer to eternity as part of God's nature?) in a way that does not involve some other layer / form of time (which would in turn pose the same original problem of infinite regress). Yet that yields an unfortunate side-effect: the atheist is free to appeal to the same thing. That there is simply some unknown aspect of the universe beyond our feeble cognitive abilities.

In other words, appeals to God being beyond eternity forfeit arguments such as those from efficient causality, time & contingency, and change. Any other ideas?

[Ziggamafu]

Hmm...

So a certain Catholic philosopher told me something like this (I've constructed a summary of his responses):

[i]God is not merely actual ("first act") but also active ("second act"). Since God is infinitely actual and not potential, He can act without being acted upon or changed. The relationship between cause and effect IN space and time is a reciprocal one, since "to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." But this is not true of the relation between God the eternal cause and the universe (in part or in whole) as the temporal effect.[/i]

[Guest Jon]

This is my first post and was thrilled to find this topic. May I add my two cents...

Though this does not answer the orig question - on the topic of time- from an [i]earth standing still[/i] revelation I was given this insight by the grace of God---that [color="#000080"]Time is Foreplay for God[/color].

Please don't think me rude...that was the revelation, pure and simple. Our purpose being only for God's Heart Pleasure --He is so anxiously and deliciously and patiently waiting for our hearts to completely open to Him totally using our own free will. That is His Joy Supreme and Sublime.
Even if only for an instant when we lay fear aside.

Thank you, Jon

[Ziggamafu]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the reply of the Catholic philosopher? It seems to me that half of my problem is merely being restated in his answer (God cannot be moved or changed, because such things only exist in time). I grant that - of course - as this is an essential and logically necessary doctrine of the Church, that God is eternal and (consequently) changeless. But I do not see here a real solution to the heart of my problem, which is subsequent: that if God moves (in mind or in "body") he ceases to be eternal. Every motion would be a creation of time. Moreover, it would be a real [i]change [/i]. That is, God's actuality in consciousness would in eternity be "this", and would change (necessarily presupposing time) to an actuality in consciousness of "that".

For instance:

"now" = Eternity of God Alone

"then" = Moment of initial time/space via individual act of Creation

How can one deny, while retaining intellectual honesty, that a real change has taken place here? And if a change has occurred, then how could the initiator of the change be eternal? For in "this" becoming "that", we presuppose at least another layer of time but not time's absence.

I will be looking for a solution for awhile, it seems...

Edit: I just thought of another problem. How can it be stated that consciousness may exist at all in changeless eternity? Would not consciousness lose its ability to be defined / recognized if it is not moving through time? Is time necessary for consciousness to exist in actuality?

Edited October 16, 2008 by Ziggamafu

[kafka]

I dont have time to get into depth right now (I'll try to reply to your previous posts since I am interested in this subject), but the simple answer to your question is summed up in this statment:

God is One Divine Eternal Act

It is impossible to state (even in philosophical terms) that there is a first act and a second act in God. If this were true then God would be divided. Everything God is/does is One. Its something so mysterious and simple that even the best of theologians can explain in a limited way.

[kafka]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1572282' date='Jun 15 2008, 09:04 PM']Can it be possible that eternity does not exist at all since it is a concept of negation; it is the absence of time?

Like darkness is the absence of light but does not exist as such.[/quote]
I see what you are getting at, but I would answer by saying: God is Eternity. God is Timeless & Placeless, thus He is everywhere & everywhen so in that sense I do not see absence. I see a fullness and perfection.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1572408' date='Jun 15 2008, 11:43 PM']I get that there is no time in eternity. I get that.

Time is a measurement of change. Thus there is no change in eternity. If there is no change in eternity, how does God "start" creating the world from eternity? Thats the question.[/quote]
I would answer by stating that God is One Divine Eternal Act. Everything that God is/does is One. God accomplishes all in One Divine Eternal act. To say otherwise would mean that there is something missing or divided in God which of course we know is not true. So every act of creation, of grace, of providence, all deeds of God in salvation history--are One Divine Eternal Act beyond Time and Place.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1572673' date='Jun 16 2008, 11:25 AM']God is beyond both time and eterrnity. Nevertheless, both time and eternity are divine processions (proodos), which means that they are merely different ways of experiencing God.[/quote]
God is beyond the Timelessness and Placelessness of Heaven, and he is beyond the lesser eternal nature of angels and men, but He is not beyond Eternity since He is Eternity.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1572705' date='Jun 16 2008, 11:58 AM']I believe you're still thinking of eternity as never-ending time, which is an oxymoron since time is part of creation and thus has a beginning and an end (just like the universe). Eternity has no time, so there's no "point" when God began to create. I'd almost say eternity is simply an adjective for God, for what else is there besides God and Creation?[/quote]
I agree. Eternity is a limited way of describing God, just as we say God is Love, is Mercy, is Justice, etc. yet He is One, and we say His mercy is His justice, is His love, and so on.

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1667166' date='Sep 30 2008, 06:51 PM']I don't know...eternity still seems to equate to a prison, from which there can be no escape - to move, change, or act; e.g., creation - without violating one's own nature (if indeed eternity is a part of God's nature). "Frozen" in eternity, one would be unable to have a unique thought, let alone act, for there would be no "then" which could subsequently become "now", whether in thought (reflection) or in deed (action).

The best explanation seems to remain that God is "beyond" eternity and infinity (but then, wouldn't it be errant to refer to eternity as part of God's nature?) in a way that does not involve some other layer / form of time (which would in turn pose the same original problem of infinite regress). Yet that yields an unfortunate side-effect: the atheist is free to appeal to the same thing. That there is simply some unknown aspect of the universe beyond our feeble cognitive abilities.

In other words, appeals to God being beyond eternity forfeit arguments such as those from efficient causality, time & contingency, and change. Any other ideas?[/quote]
Eternity cannot be equated with a prison. In fact it is ultimate freedom. Imagine, by being beyond Time and Place, One is everywhere, and everywhen. And so some explain the Timeless and Placeless nature of Heaven to be Timeful and Placeful. Those in Heaven see the Creation of the world as it is happening. There is not waiting for their friends and families to arrive in Heaven since Heaven is beyond Time and Place.

And still Heaven is a creation and a mere reflection of the One Divine Eternal Act we call God.

One of the punishments of hell is that the inhabitants thereof will always be stuck in a sort of time. Time and place can be a burden to man, and so I like using the druggy, who shoots himself up with heroine, etc as a metaphor for something who is trying to induce a pseudo Timelessness & Placelessness, a pseudo experience of God, where they could practice prayer and occasionally attain a sort of Timelessness contemplative experience in prayer as described by Thomas Merton.


[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1672637' date='Oct 8 2008, 07:45 AM']Hmm...

So a certain Catholic philosopher told me something like this (I've constructed a summary of his responses):

[i]God is not merely actual ("first act") but also active ("second act"). Since God is infinitely actual and not potential, He can act without being acted upon or changed. The relationship between cause and effect IN space and time is a reciprocal one, since "to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." But this is not true of the relation between God the eternal cause and the universe (in part or in whole) as the temporal effect.[/i][/quote]
The first sentence above doesnt make sense to me. To divide God into what He is and what He does, isnt a satisfactory explanation for me since that implies division, and thus impefection. In God being is doing and doing is being.

Edited October 16, 2008 by kafka

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='kafka' post='1679101' date='Oct 16 2008, 03:17 PM']I see what you are getting at, but I would answer by saying: God is Eternity. God is Timeless & Placeless, thus He is everywhere & everywhen so in that sense I do not see absence. I see a fullness and perfection.[/quote]

So far so good.

[quote]I would answer by stating that God is One Divine Eternal Act. Everything that God is/does is One. God accomplishes all in One Divine Eternal act. To say otherwise would mean that there is something missing or divided in God which of course we know is not true. So every act of creation, of grace, of providence, all deeds of God in salvation history--are One Divine Eternal Act beyond Time and Place.[/quote]

No. You imply (although it may not have been intentional) that there is one eternal act; indeed, this seems to be a solution - but only for those who wish to violate the teaching that the universe is not eternal, but rather was created from nothing at a beginning point. If God's act of creation were eternal, so would be the creation.


[quote]God is beyond the Timelessness and Placelessness of Heaven, and he is beyond the lesser eternal nature of angels and men, but He is not beyond Eternity since He is Eternity.[/quote]

I don't know that I agree with calling God "Eternity" but I've not thought a great deal about it; perhaps it is no different than calling God "Love", "Reality", "Truth", or "Power" - in which case, nothing in this statement troubles me.

[quote]I agree. Eternity is a limited way of describing God, just as we say God is Love, is Mercy, is Justice, etc. yet He is One, and we say His mercy is His justice, is His love, and so on.[/quote]

I can agree with this. Finite methods will never adequately express infinite Divinity.

[quote]Eternity cannot be equated with a prison. In fact it is ultimate freedom. Imagine, by being beyond Time and Place, One is everywhere, and everywhen. And so some explain the Timeless and Placeless nature of Heaven to be Timeful and Placeful. Those in Heaven see the Creation of the world as it is happening. There is not waiting for their friends and families to arrive in Heaven since Heaven is beyond Time and Place.[/quote]

For those in Heaven, sure (in regards to the experience of freedom). I would suggest that they (saints & angels) would necessarily experience some other dimension of time in which the whole of creation history is perhaps like one long film strip from their perspective, each "frame" (moment & space) able to be studied. Yet, this does not answer the question regarding movement / action within eternity; it begs it. For the whole problem is that eternity is changeless; a motionless "now" - and even that seems inadequate to describe the absolute stillness suggested, for terms such as "now" and "stillness" only make sense with a frame of reference, presupposing surrounding time.

[quote]And still Heaven is a creation and a mere reflection of the One Divine Eternal Act we call God.[/quote]

Okay.

[the comments on Hell do not seem relevant to the OP or in need of address]

[quote]The first sentence above doesnt make sense to me. To divide God into what He is and what He does, isnt a satisfactory explanation for me since that implies division, and thus impefection. In God being is doing and doing is being.[/quote]

I trust the philosopher in question, but yeah, it is difficult for me to follow as well.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

[LivingStone]

Gotta figure someone's got it right in this topic board somewhere...

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='LivingStone' post='1679600' date='Oct 17 2008, 12:04 AM']Gotta figure someone's got it right in this topic board somewhere...[/quote]

I think Apotheon's is the only sound answer I've seen. I know it is the only one that I have come up with. But that means that the atheist can play the same card - "the universe, at its core, its forces of generation, is 'beyond' our comprehension, beyond such terms as eternity and infinity" etc.

Seemingly, this would make several of the most time-tested arguments for God's existence irrelevant (time, cause, change, etc.)