Could God Do This?

[Nihil Obstat]

I'm in philosophy class. (Hating it)
Here's the question we're discussing:

Given the fact that Stephen Harper did become Prime Minister, does God have the ability to make Stephen Harper have never been Prime Minister?
Can God take an event that happened and make it have never happened?

Discussing God in an intro philosophy class is lame.

[Jaime]

yes he did it twice.

prove me wrong

[Varg]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='06 November 2009 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1257530428' post='1997176']
prove me wrong
[/quote]He doesn't exist.

Sorted.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Varg' date='06 November 2009 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1257530510' post='1997178']
He doesn't exist.

Sorted.
[/quote]

Dude Stephen Harper totally exists..

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='06 November 2009 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1257531046' post='1997189']
Dude Stephen Harper totally exists..
[/quote]

[elizabeth09]

He does exist. Then how did we get here?

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 November 2009 - 01:37 PM' timestamp='1257529023' post='1997158']
I'm in philosophy class. (Hating it)
Here's the question we're discussing:

Given the fact that Stephen Harper did become Prime Minister, does God have the ability to make Stephen Harper have never been Prime Minister?
Can God take an event that happened and make it have never happened?

Discussing God in an intro philosophy class is lame.
[/quote]


St Augustine addresses the same question in the "Confessions."

Something to the effect of, God can not do what is contradictory to perfect love. If, taking free will away is against prefect love, then He can not do it.

Maybe I should go look it up to get it exact.

Jim

Edited November 6, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='06 November 2009 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1257532547' post='1997202']
St Augustine addresses the same question in the "Confessions."

Something to the effect of, God can not do what is contradictory to perfect love. If, taking free will away is against prefect love, then He can not do it.

Maybe I should go look it up to get it exact.

Jim
[/quote]
Consider a neutral event that has occurred. Can it be made to not have occurred? Doesn't concern love, just intervention.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 November 2009 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1257533264' post='1997211']
Consider a neutral event that has occurred. Can it be made to not have occurred? Doesn't concern love, just intervention.
[/quote]


Concerning the question he posted, no. Because God would have to force people to vote one way or another, which would be against free will.

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='06 November 2009 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1257534913' post='1997237']
Concerning the question he posted, no. Because God would have to force people to vote one way or another, which would be against free will.

Jim
[/quote]
All right, so let's take the human element out.

In some desolate area in the Rockies with no people nearby, there is a rockslide. Given that this event did happen, could God make it so that it never did occur? Can God "take it back"? Take back a piece of reality?

[CatholicCid]

Well, technically, he COULD, but He imposes restrictions upon Himself. As He allows us to have free will, then He will not do such a thing to interfere with our free will.

On target? Or off base?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='06 November 2009 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1257534913' post='1997237']
Concerning the question he posted, no. Because God would have to force people to vote one way or another, which would be against free will.

Jim
[/quote]

True, but could God maybe bring about the candidate's death? In which case the event of his election would not occur and free will remain intact.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='CatholicCid' date='06 November 2009 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1257535086' post='1997239']
Well, technically, he COULD, but He imposes restrictions upon Himself. As He allows us to have free will, then He will not do such a thing to interfere with our free will.

On target? Or off base?
[/quote]


[quote name='goldenchild17' date='06 November 2009 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1257535195' post='1997242']
True, but could God maybe bring about the candidate's death? In which case the event of his election would not occur and free will remain intact.
[/quote]
See my above post for clarification. It's not really about the effect of the event, it's about the reality of the event itself. Could the reality of that event be revoked, so that it was no longer real?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 November 2009 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1257535067' post='1997238']
All right, so let's take the human element out.

In some desolate area in the Rockies with no people nearby, there is a rockslide. Given that this event did happen, could God make it so that it never did occur? Can God "take it back"? Take back a piece of reality?
[/quote]

oh okay, so you're referring to events that have already actually happened? Could God reverse an event that has already physically occurred? interesting

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 November 2009 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1257535067' post='1997238']
All right, so let's take the human element out.

In some desolate area in the Rockies with no people nearby, there is a rockslide. Given that this event did happen, could God make it so that it never did occur? Can God "take it back"? Take back a piece of reality?
[/quote]


Of course, God has power over nature.

Jim

[Noel's angel]

Questions like this just really annoy me. They aren't about knowing an answer, just about being able to have a convincing argument.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='06 November 2009 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1257535195' post='1997242']
True, but could God maybe bring about the candidate's death? In which case the event of his election would not occur and free will remain intact.
[/quote]


He could, but I doubt God gets into our politics very much.

Jim

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='06 November 2009 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1257535422' post='1997249']
He could, but I doubt God gets into our politics very much.

Jim
[/quote]

perhaps. I personally believe He is far more involved in our daily lives than we might think, including general events.

But regardless, this is off-topic now as it no longer relates to the OP question.

[Nihil Obstat]

Ah, ok, I've figured it out!

It's not a question of can or cannot. It's a question of would or would not.

God would not do such a thing because to do so would be to imply that the original reality was somehow lacking, which, being God's own Creation, it cannot be. So whether or not He 'can' is irrelevant, because for God to revoke reality is to reject some small part of His own Creation.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 November 2009 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1257535983' post='1997259']
Ah, ok, I've figured it out! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

It's not a question of can or cannot. It's a question of would or would not.

God would not do such a thing because to do so would be to imply that the original reality was somehow lacking, which, being God's own Creation, it cannot be. So whether or not He 'can' is irrelevant, because for God to revoke reality is to reject some small part of His own Creation.
[/quote]


OK.

Somewhere I read, " true freedom isn't necessarily the privilege of having the choice between good or evil, but rather, the ability to chose only good."

God being perfectly free can only chose good.

Jim