Is God All Powerful?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='pat22' date='07 November 2009 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1257621265' post='1997802']
can god build a wall so high he can't climb it?

if he can build it, he can't climb it.

if he can climb it, he can't build it.

maybe this is just wordplay.
[/quote]
It's a self contradictory question that can't logically be asked.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='07 November 2009 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1257571833' post='1997596']
Think about it, God not being capable of deceiving or being deceived. This is a strength, not a weakness. He is incapable of sinning, but we are not. He is the one who is really free, not us.
[/quote]

Quite true! God cannot be both a failure and a success. He cannot pull the wings off of a butterfly for fun. I did when I was a child and now could not. This does not mean that I as a child was more powerful than God or my present self, in fact the reverse is true. I'm sure that if God could take me to eternal life now without more suffering and ultimately the experience of death, then he would. But he doesn't! so he can't! God is not all powerful in the short term, it is only in the long term that he will eradicate suffering and death.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 November 2009 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1257621394' post='1997804']
It's a self contradictory question that can't logically be asked.
[/quote]
agreed...

and more colloqually (sp) speaking...it's a lie. God cannot lie.

God cannot make a squared circle, as it is a lie. A circle is round, a square is not.

He cannot make a rock bigger than he can lift, as he is all-powerful, and the converse, by definition, limits his power...and therefore would be a lie.

[OraProMe]

Some would say that allowing a soul to go to Hell is acting contrary to the omnibenevolence of God. Some would say that creating a world when he knows the vast majority of people are going to end up in Hell contradicts his nature.

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1257654422' post='1998027']
Some would say that allowing a soul to go to Hell is acting contrary to the omnibenevolence of God. Some would say that creating a world when he knows the vast majority of people are going to end up in Hell contradicts his nature.
[/quote]

People who say that are subscribing to their own notion of what it means to be good. For God to be "all good" He has to be some sort of permissive parent who lets His child do what he wants and then give him a reward for it. This is not the case.

God in His benevolence realizes the cruelty of creating a human being with the sole prerogative to render Him praise. This is not love. God would be a desperate loser who had to create beings to express love for Him. Love necessitates choice to reciprocate love to the lover or reject it. Spending a life rejecting the lover is a choice.

Could God really be considered "good" if He makes us do what we don't want to do and receive the consequences we do not desire? Would God make us spend eternity with Him even though we so clearly indicated by our actions and internal disposition that we didn't even want to spend a moment with Him on earth much less for eternity?

Hell is proof of God's love not the antithesis of it. Hell indicates that God honors us with a choice to Love Him. No hell would indicate God's despotic and forced pulling to Himself disregarding the choice, which is the reverence demanded upon the lover for the beloved.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='08 November 2009 - 03:40 PM' timestamp='1257655213' post='1998034']
Love necessitates choice to reciprocate love to the lover or reject it. Spending a life rejecting the lover is a choice.

Hell is proof of God's love not the antithesis of it. Hell indicates that God honors us with a choice to Love Him. No hell would indicate God's despotic and forced pulling to Himself disregarding the choice, which is the reverence demanded upon the lover for the beloved.
[/quote]

Hell [u]IS[/u] separation from God's love. People choose hell by their own actions and free will. I would imagine that since God loves us he would be sad when a person chooses hell rather than what he offers.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='07 November 2009 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1257655213' post='1998034']
People who say that are subscribing to their own notion of what it means to be good. For God to be "all good" He has to be some sort of permissive parent who lets His child do what he wants and then give him a reward for it. This is not the case.

God in His benevolence realizes the cruelty of creating a human being with the sole prerogative to render Him praise. This is not love. God would be a desperate loser who had to create beings to express love for Him. Love necessitates choice to reciprocate love to the lover or reject it. Spending a life rejecting the lover is a choice.

Could God really be considered "good" if He makes us do what we don't want to do and receive the consequences we do not desire? Would God make us spend eternity with Him even though we so clearly indicated by our actions and internal disposition that we didn't even want to spend a moment with Him on earth much less for eternity?

Hell is proof of God's love not the antithesis of it. Hell indicates that God honors us with a choice to Love Him. No hell would indicate God's despotic and forced pulling to Himself disregarding the choice, which is the reverence demanded upon the lover for the beloved.
[/quote]

Come on now, you're painting a very black and white picture. If God gives us free will then he must also give us an eternal consequence for our bad choices? There are many alternatives that an All Powerful and all loving God could pursue that do not include sending souls to eternal punishment for failing to live up to his standards.God could, and if he was truly omnibenevolent would, save all souls from Hell or, at the very least, let the souls who do not merit heaven become non-existent.

The whole idea of revenge and punishment is a completely human and visceral anyway.One would hope that an all loving God could transcend the desire to punish people who upset him.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1257659045' post='1998091']
Come on now, you're painting a very black and white picture. If God gives us free will then he must also give us an eternal consequence for our bad choices? There are many alternatives that an All Powerful and all loving God could pursue that do not include sending souls to eternal punishment for failing to live up to his standards.God could, and if he was truly omnibenevolent would, save all souls from Hell or, at the very least, let the souls who do not merit heaven become non-existent.

The whole idea of revenge and punishment is a completely human and visceral anyway.One would hope that an all loving God could transcend the desire to punish people who upset him.
[/quote]
What would you say to the assertion that hell is ultimately the choice of the individual, and God merely allows them ultimately to reject Him?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='08 November 2009 - 12:28 AM' timestamp='1257658106' post='1998071']
Hell [u]IS[/u] separation from God's love. People choose hell by their own actions and free will. I would imagine that since God loves us he would be sad when a person chooses hell rather than what he offers.
[/quote]

Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. I doubt many people believe they're going to Hell. If someone doesn't have full knowledge of their choices then how can they be held completely accountable for them? How can culpability for an action be attributed to someone when they may not have known it was wrong and had at the most a limited comprehension of the consequences?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1257659293' post='1998094']
Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. I doubt many people believe they're going to Hell. If someone doesn't have full knowledge of their choices then how can they be held completely accountable for them? How can culpability for an action be attributed to someone when they may not have known it was wrong and had at the most a limited comprehension of the consequences?
[/quote]
When we say that a person ultimately rejects God, it's because they, in the end, cannot accept His love and cannot stand to spend eternity with Him.

[OraProMe]

I'd love to see your logic behind that. If heaven does exist then you, Pope Benedict and I are all unworthy for it.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 11:51 PM' timestamp='1257659493' post='1998099']
I'd love to see your logic behind that. If heaven does exist then you, Pope Benedict and I are all unworthy for it.
[/quote]
Everyone is unworthy of it. That's where God's perfect mercy comes in. You know that.

[LivingStone]

Can I just give you St. Thomas' philosophy behind how a) God being almighty (or omnipotent) doesn't conflict in any matter with the idea that b) there are things that God cannot do, as it is contrary to His essence.

I'm going to give it to you straight from St. Tommy. These are rather short, but dense, and not too difficult. These are from Book II of the Summa Contra Gentiles (best stuff).

[url="http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_22.htm"]God is Almighty[/url]

[url="http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_25.htm"]In what sense some things are said to be Impossible to the Almighty[/url]

Oh how I love St. Tommy. He's my patron. Peace guys!

[OraProMe]

You're proposing a God who punishes those who displease him. You can create as many little propositions and side arguments as you like (the soul cannot stand His love etc.) but, at its most basic, you believe in a benevolent creator who creates a soul knowing it will go to Hell and allows this to happen to the vast majority of people when He could simply embrace and accept those who had rejected him in this life. If that is not a contradiction then I don't know what is.

I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier:

The whole idea of revenge and punishment is a completely human and visceral anyway. One would hope that an all loving God could transcend the desire to punish people who upset him.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='LivingStone' date='08 November 2009 - 01:21 AM' timestamp='1257661283' post='1998109']
Can I just give you St. Thomas' philosophy behind how a) God being almighty (or omnipotent) doesn't conflict in any matter with the idea that b) there are things that God cannot do, as it is contrary to His essence.

I'm going to give it to you straight from St. Tommy. These are rather short, but dense, and not too difficult. These are from Book II of the Summa Contra Gentiles (best stuff).

[url="http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_22.htm"]God is Almighty[/url]

[url="http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_25.htm"]In what sense some things are said to be Impossible to the Almighty[/url]

Oh how I love St. Tommy. He's my patron. Peace guys!
[/quote]

Thank you! Will read tonight

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='08 November 2009 - 12:27 AM' timestamp='1257661641' post='1998113']
You're proposing a God who punishes those who displease him. You can create as many little propositions and side arguments as you like (the soul cannot stand His love etc.) but, at its most basic, you believe in a benevolent creator who creates a soul knowing it will go to Hell and allows this to happen to the vast majority of people when He could simply embrace and accept those who had rejected him in this life. If that is not a contradiction then I don't know what is.

I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier:

The whole idea of revenge and punishment is a completely human and visceral anyway. One would hope that an all loving God could transcend the desire to punish people who upset him.
[/quote]
Wouldn't it be a punishment to force someone to choose Him, even though they'd consistently rejected Him at every opportunity? Furthermore, wouldn't that imply a lack of free will that goes against what we believe about Creation?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 November 2009 - 01:32 AM' timestamp='1257661931' post='1998116']
Wouldn't it be a punishment to force someone to choose Him, even though they'd consistently rejected Him at every opportunity? Furthermore, wouldn't that imply a lack of free will that goes against what we believe about Creation?
[/quote]

If you want to ask that you have to first answer this:

Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. I doubt many people believe they're going to Hell. If someone doesn't have full knowledge of their choices then how can they be held completely accountable for them? How can culpability for an action be attributed to someone when they may not have known it was wrong and had at the very most a limited comprehension of the consequences?

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='08 November 2009 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1257662547' post='1998120']
If you want to ask that you have to first answer this:

Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. I doubt many people believe they're going to Hell. If someone doesn't have full knowledge of their choices then how can they be held completely accountable for them? How can culpability for an action be attributed to someone when they may not have known it was wrong and had at the very most a limited comprehension of the consequences?
[/quote]

Are you familiar with invincible ignorance? Divine Mercy will handle those who do not know any better and have no conviction to turn from sins they do know are sinful. My post above wasn't meant to encapsulate all cases of human damnation. I know that it's not that simple. However, the scenario of a hell-sent soul is rather black and white...I just don't know the specifics of this scenario (categorically). That's way the Church never proclaims a soul to be damned.

What I was trying to illustrate was, in its reality, how a soul ends up in hell. This is done by a rejection of God's love. How this is done...I'm sure it varies. Some may be willfully ignorant of the truth, some may reject the truth when they had it and didn't persevere, some may have it but be so arrogant about it they are more concerned with arrogantly parading it then bringing others to it.

Who know the method with which a soul chooses to reject God...that is not black and white. That a soul rejects God and then merits eternity without him...is black and white.

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='08 November 2009 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1257661641' post='1998113']
You're proposing a God who punishes those who displease him. You can create as many little propositions and side arguments as you like (the soul cannot stand His love etc.) but, at its most basic, you believe in a benevolent creator who creates a soul knowing it will go to Hell and allows this to happen to the vast majority of people when He could simply embrace and accept those who had rejected him in this life. If that is not a contradiction then I don't know what is.
[/quote]

Love requires free will. Covenants require free will. Both state "I am fully yours and you are fully mine", and both require both parties to enter in freely. In all of history, in all of his covenants, God never broke his side of the bargain. Humans did. We would choose something other than God either out of fear or selfishness, and it would always lead people to ruin. It always did and it always does. but God always came back to try it again.

No father could ever imagine sending their newborn son to the pain and suffering of hell no matter how bad of an act the son did. But no father has the power to stop a grown up son from saying "eff u, dad" and moving out of the house. To forceably hold the son in the house is not a loving relationship.

Catholics believe that only God knows the true hearts of men and is the only one with the power, knowledge and ability to properly judge a person based on what they know of God and if they were able to "truly" deny him. This actually puts more burden on the faithful. The more a person grows in faith the more painful to God is committing a sin. The faithful person knows God more intimately, and truly knows that by sinning he is choosing something other than God - for God is true goodness. IE: the faithful person [i]does[/i] know better.

Catholics only know of a handful of people who are in heaven (compared to how many could be up there), Catholics have no idea who is in hell. We don't even claim Judas is there. That's up to God. But we weren't made to live in ignorance of the truth. The truth of who God is is to be spread to everyone not to make them more culpable, but because a relationship with God is the point of life. God wants all of us to be with him. Free will is the only way to have love happen.

We should really put a sticky thread up that explains this whole "God sends people to hell" thing

[Winchester]

So we're defining perfection as a weakness, then.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Winchester