Can A Sin Be Justified?

[picchick]

Can a sin ever be justified?

[Aloysius]

no, that's why it's called a sin.

[picchick]

Example: white lies, dangerous driving to get somewhere, lesser of two evils

[Aloysius]

white lies, as in intentionally keeping information from someone else, are only a sin if the person has a right to that information. if the person has no right to that information (as a Nazi has no right to know where the Jews he wishes to kill are), one may hide that information from them justly with no sin involved.

it is only a sin to drive dangerously if it is out of a careless disregard for your own life and the lives of others. dangerous actions are only sinful when they are idle and pointless; when there is a reason worthy of risking your life for, there is no sin involved. it is, in fact, a virtuous act to risk one's life for a greater good.

one may never actually do an evil, even if it is the lesser of two evils. it's permissible to indirectly materially cooperate with someone else's evil if it is the lesser of two evils; but there is never a moral way to yourself do the lesser of two evils; because when faced with the choice yourself you must do good no matter what. voting is indirect material cooperation, so if a candidate is less evil than another candidate, you materially cooperate with the evil of the one candidate by supporting him not because you support that evil, but because you support his opposition to the greater evil. you can never actually do evil yourself, even with a potential good end in mind.

[Brother Adam]

A sin that is justified is by its nature, not a sin.

[Sternhauser]

I'm in agreement with Aloysius and Brother Adam, for once. Group hug!

~Sternhauser

Edited November 8, 2009 by Sternhauser

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='08 November 2009 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1257663605' post='1998126']
white lies, as in intentionally keeping information from someone else, are only a sin if the person has a right to that information. if the person has no right to that information (as a Nazi has no right to know where the Jews he wishes to kill are), one may hide that information from them justly with no sin involved.

it is only a sin to drive dangerously if it is out of a careless disregard for your own life and the lives of others. dangerous actions are only sinful when they are idle and pointless; when there is a reason worthy of risking your life for, there is no sin involved. it is, in fact, a virtuous act to risk one's life for a greater good.

one may never actually do an evil, even if it is the lesser of two evils. it's permissible to indirectly materially cooperate with someone else's evil if it is the lesser of two evils; but there is never a moral way to yourself do the lesser of two evils; because when faced with the choice yourself you must do good no matter what. voting is indirect material cooperation, so if a candidate is less evil than another candidate, you materially cooperate with the evil of the one candidate by supporting him not because you support that evil, but because you support his opposition to the greater evil. you can never actually do evil yourself, even with a potential good end in mind.
[/quote]

White lies are always evil, as they are lies (a falsehood stated with intent to deceive). However, moral evasion may be employed, by which a truth is told with intent to mislead (which is slightly different from deceiving). There's a story about a woman during WWII who would hide allied soldiers in her home. She built a rather large "crib" in her attic and had the soldiers hide there. When Nazi patrols would see one of the men and be suspicious, she could tell them that she knew them since they were in the crib. It was a truth, but a misleading one, as the Nazis took it to mean that she'd known them from birth.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Raphael' date='08 November 2009 - 10:54 AM' timestamp='1257692084' post='1998188']
White lies are always evil, as they are lies (a falsehood stated with intent to deceive). However, moral evasion may be employed, by which a truth is told with intent to mislead (which is slightly different from deceiving). There's a story about a woman during WWII who would hide allied soldiers in her home. She built a rather large "crib" in her attic and had the soldiers hide there. When Nazi patrols would see one of the men and be suspicious, she could tell them that she knew them since they were in the crib. It was a truth, but a misleading one, as the Nazis took it to mean that she'd known them from birth.
[/quote]

A good clarification. Some of us, unfortunately, have been blessed with the gift of sniffing out mental reservation from a mile away.

Another moral alternative would be to simply give them the old Trotsky Surprise, when applicable.

~Sternhauser

Edited November 8, 2009 by Sternhauser

[aalpha1989]

Trotsky surprise?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='08 November 2009 - 10:05 AM' timestamp='1257692711' post='1998192']
Trotsky surprise?
[/quote]
I'm with you.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Raphael' date='08 November 2009 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1257693508' post='1998195']
I'm with you.
[/quote]

I think he means one should flee to Mexico if asked a difficult or embarrassing question.

[picchick]

An example given to me:

A surprise party is being thrown for Mike as he approaches 40 years old. Mike goes up to Jane who is part of the surprise party planning commitee.

"Hey Jane!"
"Hey Mike! How are ya?"
"Fine, fine. How are you? Are you throwing a party for my 40th birthday?"
"Uh, no. Why would you think that?"

Did Jane sin?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='picchick' date='08 November 2009 - 11:47 AM' timestamp='1257695226' post='1998200']
An example given to me:

A surprise party is being thrown for Mike as he approaches 40 years old. Mike goes up to Jane who is part of the surprise party planning commitee.

"Hey Jane!"
"Hey Mike! How are ya?"
"Fine, fine. How are you? Are you throwing a party for my 40th birthday?"
"Uh, no. Why would you think that?"

Did Jane sin?
[/quote]

Was it an untruth said with the intent to deceive?

~Sternhauser

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='picchick' date='08 November 2009 - 10:47 AM' timestamp='1257695226' post='1998200']
An example given to me:

A surprise party is being thrown for Mike as he approaches 40 years old. Mike goes up to Jane who is part of the surprise party planning commitee.

"Hey Jane!"
"Hey Mike! How are ya?"
"Fine, fine. How are you? Are you throwing a party for my 40th birthday?"
"Uh, no. Why would you think that?"

Did Jane sin?
[/quote]
Yes, but had she left out the "uh, no" part and made the question sound ridiculous in her tone, she could have practiced moral evasion.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Raphael' date='08 November 2009 - 12:07 PM' timestamp='1257696454' post='1998211']
Yes, but had she left out the "uh, no" part and made the question sound ridiculous in her tone, she could have practiced moral evasion.
[/quote]

Unsuccessfully.

~Sternhauser

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='08 November 2009 - 11:15 AM' timestamp='1257696933' post='1998212']
Unsuccessfully.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Depends on the individuals.

[add]

we all do it, even thought you know it is wrong, that doesn't make it justifiable. sinning is like eatting just one potato chip, once you give in it is hard to stop.

[Sternhauser]

Meg, do you think Jane would have been successful in achieving her end, if she had said "Why would you think that?"

~Sternhauser

Edited November 8, 2009 by Sternhauser

[Maggyie]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='08 November 2009 - 11:19 AM' timestamp='1257693588' post='1998196']
I think he means one should flee to Mexico if asked a difficult or embarrassing question.
[/quote]


Or... take an ice axe to your interrogator's brain?

[picchick]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='08 November 2009 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1257697998' post='1998218']
Meg, do you think Jane would have been successful in achieving her end, if she had said "Why would you think that?"

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

perhaps but won't Jane eventually have to answer the question yes or no?

By the way, all these qustions are out of curiosity.

I agree with apparently. Once you start you can't just stop. So when does "innocent" lies to evade difficult/awkward situations become sins?