Carmelite Nuns

[Orans]

[indent][indent][quote] This is what Vatican II was also, a call to renewal in the spirit of the Gospel and the original -and always creative- inspiration of the founders. The invitation was to look back at the source, at the charism -or gift of Grace- and to incarnate it in modern or contemporary expressions. Without losing the values of course.

But this is easier said than done. It is easy to cut shorter a habit, to tear down walls or grilles, but what else is needed ... if anything?? Or maybe even that is not necessary at all, so that we can just rewrite our documents with wording according to Vat II and leave everything the same ... for the sake of not making mistakes??
[/quote]


[/indent][/indent][quote name='HisChild' date='10 November 2009 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1257906906' post='2000060']
I'm not sure what you mean here.[/quote]

I'm trying to convey here my own experience. I've been in several communities over a period of 30 years, from very conservative communities who haven't really changed (except they adapted the wording of Constitutions and documents to the requirements of the Vatican regulations) and won't ever change. Here tradition and not making any changes is far more important than the openness to the Spirit.

I can quote one particular Congregation born around the same time as Mother Teresa's and also with full approval -Decretum Laudis- in which a favorite phrase of the founder and foundress was "here is this way, if it is not this way, it is not here". They have written down and approved by Rome every minute detail of their life, and I mean minute really. The foundress wanted to be SURE that things were not going to change after her given all the turmoil she saw around monasteries in her life time.

Then I've also been in other communities who have changed to the point of getting closer to live pretty much according to themselves and overlooking what doesn't suit in the Constitutions -which are very general. Ironically I found in practice this very open community to be exactly as rigid about imposing their way on everyone coming to the monastery. As an example, they had big flexibility with the personal horarium for every Sister, there is a TV room in the monastery and it was normal to watch TV during free time. But funny enough they would not be happy with a person who would use their free time for prayer instead of TV watching as it was the use.

I also saw individual holy persons in both cases.

So I'm trying to say that we have much greater individual responsibility for holiness than we might like, and that ultimately it is not the community and it's style what matters but our personal response to God in the given circumstances of our life.


[quote name='HisChild' date='10 November 2009 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1257906906' post='2000060']
And to not have communities kick out vocations at the first sight of a challenge. Sometimes God uses those challenges as a refiner's fire and then the person leaves their vocation, sometimes not entering anywhere else. I'm not saying they lost their vocation of their own fault... but sometimes I think communities are too quick to claim early difficulties in a vocation as a 'sign' that they're not meant for either that community or religious life as a whole. [/quote]

I agree with this too. And it is a reflection of lack of maturity and depth in the community already living the life, which has the sacred responsibility to pass on the charism, and to help form and grow the new comers.

[HisChild]

It doesn't take a few months to form a nun. Especially with today's society where independence and self sufficiency are normal traits due to will or necessity, it sometimes take a couple of years before the person feels truly settled in the community. I don't know, but I think that in some situations communities might have had a really great sister had they waited out some initial difficulties.

I know for myself, dying to myself and shedding the trappings of the world will take some time. I have not really love for things of this earth because they are so fleeting, but for whatever silly reason I still know it will take some time to get the 'drug' of the world out of my system, if that makes sense.

Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, pray for us.

[Orans]

[quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1257908811' post='2000120']
Not to make this too personal, but I have to agree wholeheartedly with this one. I still have no idea why Mother was so insistent that I leave Kirk Edge, while at the same time offering to phone any other Carmel in the UK and give them a reference for me, and also giving me a written letter of recommendation saying that I was a hard worker and totally obedient! The reasons she gave me didn't make any sense, especially after she had arranged for me to meet with a priest (the VR) for nearly two hours and he told her that her concerns were really just the result of cultural misunderstandings. She couldn't name any instance of anything that I had actually done wrong (it was just a feeling of hers) and I even asked for more time to show her that I could be molded into whatever she wanted to suit her requirements, but she wouldn't consider even that much. It seems to me that as KE had their last solemn profession over 14 years ago, and vocations are at an all time low all over the UK, there would be some desire to try to make things work, like in a marriage, especially when the person involved was prepared to do anything and everything to make it work, and loved everything about the relationship despite being rejected!

Personally, I have now accepted it as God's will and plan for my life, but in terms of communities and vocations, it just doesn't seem like a very good way to encourage and keep vocations - to give up on someone just because they don't seem to meet some idealized vision of the perfect postulant. That is almost like a discerner looking for the perfect community - ain't gonna happen!

Now don't anyone get upset over what I have written. I am ok, and I don't mean any disrespect to Mother or to the community, as I still stay in touch with them and with WV and we are all on the best of terms. I was just agreeing with HisChild that communities need to also consider that maybe one of the reasons they don't have (or can't keep) vocations is because of something they are not doing right?? Marriage is a 2-way street, and so is community life.

That being said, it would be better to focus on what is being done right, and then maybe other communities could try to imitate this? The Poor Clares in Spain are just one example, but there are many more who are also thriving, and that is so inspiring! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/love.gif[/img]
[/quote]

"Been there done -or rather suffered- that!!!!!"

This is one of the HUGE problems I see with survival of autonomous monasteries versus the wider frame of Congregations. This is such a small group of women, often with little education or life experience -the old ones at least- living in a routine that makes them officially "holy". Why would Reverend Mother (do we need to call them that way in the XXI century?? Isn't "Mother" reverent enough?) choose to have to deal with personal or community issues that the candidate stirs by her very presence especially when she has no clue about what to do or how to deal with it?

At least there is a basic goodness that makes them realize that it is not the new comer's fault, and are willing to help the candidate make a try in some other place.... But they just can help themselves.

I've come to make peace with the fact that some monasteries really NEED to die and desapear for the sake of the future. God has new life and is looking for hands willing to receive the gift ... while of course remaining faithful to a tradition which is centuries old but is not an absolute value.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Orans' date='11 November 2009 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1257910335' post='2000151']
"Been there done -or rather suffered- that!!!!!"

This is one of the HUGE problems I see with survival of autonomous monasteries versus the wider frame of Congregations. This is such a small group of women, often with little education or life experience -the old ones at least- living in a routine that makes them officially "holy". Why would Reverend Mother (do we need to call them that way in the XXI century?? Isn't "Mother" reverent enough?) choose to have to deal with personal or community issues that the candidate stirs by her very presence especially when she has no clue about what to do or how to deal with it?

At least there is a basic goodness that makes them realize that it is not the new comer's fault, and are willing to help the candidate make a try in some other place.... But they just can help themselves.

I've come to make peace with the fact that some monasteries really NEED to die and desapear for the sake of the future. God has new life and is looking for hands willing to receive the gift ... while of course remaining faithful to a tradition which is centuries old but is not an absolute value.
[/quote]

I'll address the last point for now - because it is a good one. Someone here has commented on how wonderful St Helen's Carmel is, and yet this community is an amalgm of two other communities, both started by different foundresses. It must have been very hard for them to try to adapt to each other and to accommodate the different ways of doing things, but this might also be giving them more sensitivity and tolerance for others, and could be a very positive thing in the long run. According to Mother at KE, they are always asking KE to come join them too, but KE refuses because they don't want to adapt to any changes at all and they don't want to leave their very traditional monastery for the newer one at St H (they had to rebuild because the old one was falling apart). Kirk Edge keeps telling St H to come join them (because then they will have the home field advantage ) Anyway, it might be that the merging of different communities will be a saving grace for them all in the end. Only God knows.

[DameAgnes]

[quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1257910983' post='2000159']
And I only know about Carmel because I was a Carmelite.
[/quote]

Ahem.

You ARE a Carmelite, Annie.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='DameAgnes' date='11 November 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1257914250' post='2000231']
Ahem.

You ARE a Carmelite, Annie.
[/quote]


You are very sweet but the fact is that although I will always be a Carmelite in my heart, I am nothing right now (there's a joke about that, but I won't tell it here).

But that's ok. I am under spiritual direction from a wonderful FSSP priest who is taking particularly good care of my soul. He has asked me not to discern anything to do with religious life at the moment as he wants me to take a step back from all of that and to establish a firm foundation in my spiritual life first. He says that he doesn't think I have had any good instruction or formation at all since I first came to the Catholic Church! I tend to agree with him too. That is probably why I have had such a hard time in discernment. I feel very blessed that God has put this priest in my life to guide me at this point in time. The other FSSP priest who helps him is now my regular Confessor, and between the two of them I feel very protected.

I have heard it said that "once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite" and I will always carry that in my heart. But I am not a religious and am not discerning religious life at the moment. That may change over time, only God knows.

[vee]

[quote name='HisChild' date='10 November 2009 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1257906906' post='2000060']


Perhaps that's another case of out of sight, out of mind? Because cloisters are not all that much of an active presence, and of course because they aren't really a contribution to society because all they do is pray all day , one doesn't think of cloistered religious when praying for vocations. I'm lucky. My parish prays for vocations to religious life every weekend.

[/quote]

Im very new to discerning a possible vocation but one of the first things i thought was which order do I like and people will think well of because no one around me is going to understand a contemplative vocation. Oh she is going to pray all day what a loser she should be helping the poor etc. Those thoughts quickly ended when I said God you pick, I dont care what anyone thinks or will say, you pick where I go if I am to go. With that change in attitude, of starting to try to do God`s will, the Carmelites went from being the last place Id ever consider to the first.

One of the things that has to be done then is work to get rid of the stimga attached to contemplative life. The stimga that they are lazy losers who have little to no education, no interpersonal skills, and no luck in the rest of their life so a convent is like palce to put women who cant survive the world.

[vee]

[quote name='Orans' date='10 November 2009 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1257910335' post='2000151']
"Been there done -or rather suffered- that!!!!!"

This is one of the HUGE problems I see with survival of autonomous monasteries versus the wider frame of Congregations. This is such a small group of women, often with little education or life experience -the old ones at least- living in a routine that makes them officially "holy". Why would Reverend Mother (do we need to call them that way in the XXI century?? Isn't "Mother" reverent enough?) choose to have to deal with personal or community issues that the candidate stirs by her very presence especially when she has no clue about what to do or how to deal with it?

[/quote]

The date on the calendar is not a reason to throw out the term Reverend Mother, Prioress etc.

Edited November 11, 2009 by vee8

[HisChild]

[quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1257915135' post='2000257']
You are very sweet but the fact is that although I will always be a Carmelite in my heart, I am nothing right now (there's a joke about that, but I won't tell it here).

But that's ok. I am under spiritual direction from a wonderful FSSP priest who is taking particularly good care of my soul. He has asked me not to discern anything to do with religious life at the moment as he wants me to take a step back from all of that and to establish a firm foundation in my spiritual life first. He says that he doesn't think I have had any good instruction or formation at all since I first came to the Catholic Church! I tend to agree with him too. That is probably why I have had such a hard time in discernment. I feel very blessed that God has put this priest in my life to guide me at this point in time. The other FSSP priest who helps him is now my regular Confessor, and between the two of them I feel very protected.

I have heard it said that "once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite" and I will always carry that in my heart. But I am not a religious and am not discerning religious life at the moment. That may change over time, only God knows.
[/quote]


I too have heard "Once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite". From the time I was enrolled in the scapular, I knew that my vocation whatever turn it would take, I would be Carmelite even if that meant Secular Carmelite.

It sounds like you are blessed with a wonderful spiritual formation. Do they give you lessons, ie: reading, etc? As it would happen, I just sat down with my pastor last night for the first time. I didn't realize what a prayer warrior that man is! Like you, my pastor told me to slow down and allow God to work. He thought I was rushing things. So we prayed together and I really think this is going to be a fabulous association/relationship between director and directee. He doesn't do much SD, but I said, 'well here's where I am and you tell me if you'd like to assist.' At the end, he asked me to make another appt so I'm very edified by that. I walked out of his office feeling better than I had in months. I think it has to do with having a disinterested party talk with me... the only thing he's interested in is my soul. You know? God is great, indeed.

[Orans]

[quote name='vee8' date='11 November 2009 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1257915840' post='2000279']
The date on the calendar is not a reason to throw out the term Reverend Mother, Prioress etc.
[/quote]

I see a proper place for the term Mother, Prioress, Sister, etc., which help with keeping necessary boundaries in a community.

But regreatably we all are human and when we go from what is necessary to what is "nice" -and we all want to be "nice" with the people who makes the decisions affecting "my" life- then we get into dysfunctional issues of which the Church and convent life is packed -as well as any human association-

If we add "reverend" to "Mother" then it should also be added to "Sister", and to everyone who shows up at the monastery door.

Being the "Mother" in a community is already a title of dignity as well as a task and a responsibility.

Just a little clarification on my take. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

[Orans]

[quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1257915135' post='2000257']
I am under spiritual direction from a wonderful FSSP priest who is taking particularly good care of my soul. He has asked me not to discern anything to do with religious life at the moment as he wants me to take a step back from all of that and to establish a firm foundation in my spiritual life first. He says that he doesn't think I have had any good instruction or formation at all since I first came to the Catholic Church! I tend to agree with him too. That is probably why I have had such a hard time in discernment. I feel very blessed that God has put this priest in my life to guide me at this point in time. The other FSSP priest who helps him is now my regular Confessor, and between the two of them I feel very protected.

I have heard it said that "once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite" and I will always carry that in my heart. But I am not a religious and am not discerning religious life at the moment. That may change over time, only God knows. [/quote]


[quote name='HisChild' date='11 November 2009 - 05:42 AM' timestamp='1257936139' post='2000595']
It sounds like you are blessed with a wonderful spiritual formation. Do they give you lessons, ie: reading, etc? As it would happen, I just sat down with my pastor last night for the first time. I didn't realize what a prayer warrior that man is! Like you, my pastor told me to slow down and allow God to work. He thought I was rushing things. So we prayed together and I really think this is going to be a fabulous association/relationship between director and directee. He doesn't do much SD, but I said, 'well here's where I am and you tell me if you'd like to assist.' At the end, he asked me to make another appt so I'm very edified by that. I walked out of his office feeling better than I had in months. I think it has to do with having a disinterested party talk with me... the only thing he's interested in is my soul. You know? God is great, indeed.
[/quote]

I'm really glad to see this happening with both of you. This is what spiritual direction is about. I am a sp. dr. myself and I'm doing this with people. It is so incredible to see God at work over time with people when they are given the time and "space" they need. Then there is a transformation and clarification of purpose, values, and call that happens. Blessed be the Lord!

[TradMom]

+ Praised be Jesus Christ!

I need to jump in here. I believe there are many vocations out there, but they are not supported or encouraged fully (that means first and foremost - within the family!) and then, sadly, there are difficulties in finding the right place.

I believe (from personal experience alone) that the Holy Spirit alone guides; sometimes it is a whisper and other times not. As friends and companions, we need to confirm what we see in others! That can often be the first step.

Pax!

TradMom

[FSM Sister]

[code][/code]Perhaps that's another case of out of sight, out of mind? Because cloisters are not all that much of an active presence, and of course because they aren't really a contribution to society because all they do is pray all day [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img], one doesn't think of cloistered religious when praying for vocations. I'm lucky. My parish prays for vocations to religious life every weekend.[code][/code]



I had to crack up at that one! "All they do is pray all day"??? Um... they actually have jobs, too. They make communion breads, cheeses, raise miniature horses, sew vestments, embroider altar cloths, print greeting cards and stationery, write books, or any one of a million "fun" raisers. They spend about as much time tending to sustaining the monastery, which would be rather pointless were it not "offered up."

Using the Body of Christ analogy, they are the internal organs which give life to the body. I don't see my heart or lungs, but I couldn't function without them. And although you can live with one kidney, you'd better not try it with zero. To be perfectly cold about this, active orders started cropping up as slavery was ending. It basically "filled a need" in society. Vocations to women's orders started to decline when women's lib started to flourish. Women no longer had to choose between being dominated by a man or being dominated by a female superior. They could make decisions for themselves. (I'm not passing judgment on this, just stating facts. Domination may be a good thing. People do need direction!) Being single is more and more accepted. In my day, if you were single, people usually just figured you were gay. Sheesh! I suffered a lot of this in public high school. I wasn't dating, therefore I must be gay (BTW, I'm not. I just knew what my vocation was, so dating would have been a waste of time.)

The point of all this is that now we have both contemplative and active communities, and both are very necessary in today's world. They are not the same vocation, that's why there are two types of public vows - simple for the actives, and solemn for the contemplatives (with the occasional exception to the norm). I make a private retreat in a cloister every other year, and by the third day, I can't wait to get out of there. It's not for me. Likewise, I'm sure my contemplative friends would consider it a penance to be on the other side of the grille. God did not make a body with all internal organs, or with all external organs. The inside needs the outside just as much as the outside needs the inside.

In a way, that's the beauty of the many different spiritualities (once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite, etc.) On the mystical body, a hand is not a foot, and an ear is not a nose.

I think if we had more women "not making much of a contribution to society" we'd have a much better society. The nuns would be praying for an end to abortion, war, greed, poverty, injustice, political corruption, perversion, godlessness, substance abuse, etc.

[HisChild]

[quote name='FSM Sister' date='12 November 2009 - 01:39 AM' timestamp='1258015181' post='2001205']
[code][/code]Perhaps that's another case of out of sight, out of mind? Because cloisters are not all that much of an active presence, and of course because they aren't really a contribution to society because all they do is pray all day [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img], one doesn't think of cloistered religious when praying for vocations. I'm lucky. My parish prays for vocations to religious life every weekend.[code][/code]



I had to crack up at that one! "All they do is pray all day"??? Um... they actually have jobs, too. They make communion breads, cheeses, raise miniature horses, sew vestments, embroider altar cloths, print greeting cards and stationery, write books, or any one of a million "fun" raisers. They spend about as much time tending to sustaining the monastery, which would be rather pointless were it not "offered up."

[/quote]


I hope you don't think I was serious with my 'prays all day'. Because you went on to explain what nuns do, I thought perhaps you thought I was serious. I was with the PCPA (as a postulant). That's the remark I got more than once even from parishioners before I entered. I had to, like you, explain that I would have any of a number of assignments to participate in the upkeep of the monastery as well as be a part of the jobs that would contribute in our self sufficiency. In this case, packing communion breads and labeling the boxes for shipping or tending to the gift shop. At any rate, it certainly was frustrating to get that comment and have to almost defend myself as many thought I was going some place to hide away from the world so I wouldn't have to do anything but pray.

[HisChild]

I have a question that's particularly for Carmel. I know that some/most Carmels do not have A/C or heaters. How does one stay warm or cool in the respective seasons? Do the sisters get ill from the temperature, especially in places like NY, where they have pretty severe winters?

[Orans]

[quote name='HisChild' date='12 November 2009 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1258076683' post='2001579']
I have a question that's particularly for Carmel. I know that some/most Carmels do not have A/C or heaters. How does one stay warm or cool in the respective seasons? Do the sisters get ill from the temperature, especially in places like NY, where they have pretty severe winters?
[/quote]

Although is not a Carmel, I have experience with another Order more penitential than Carmel -or even Carthusians-. The habit is basically wool and is worn the same all through the year, summer and winter alike -except for the addiction of a short sleeveless vest under the external tunic during winter. They are discalced -without stockings of any kind- wearing only sandals in summer as well as in winter. The temperatures of their places go basically from -8 or -10ºC [teens ºF] to 45 or 49ºC [110 or 120ºF]. There is no heat whatsoever, neither A/C.

There are a number of ways in which they protect themselves from the cold. First and foremost, in winter there is always a little straw or wooden carpet/stool for the feet -which otherwise freeze and as a result the whole body- everywhere, like working places, refectory, parlor, and of course in choir and your cell -only they have individual round straw carpets all year round in these two places, as they always sit on the floor -except for the Office of Readings (Matins) and solemn liturgies -Sunday Mass and Vespers (as well as solemnities). All the chairs they have -anywhere, that is at the refectory, parlor, and work places- are just stools without back support.

A second way of fighting the cold temperatures is hot food and a cup of some VERY hot drink. You learn to swallow a cup of tea, or milk, or camomille etc without burning yourself, so hot that when you have finished drinking, the cup itself is still so hot that you only can hold it with a napking. And you really warm up in seconds.

You walk and exercise to warm your body up or avoid getting too cold. But also You get used to it, or at least to enduring the cold. It is one of those things that the gost of how terrible it might be is worst than the actual enduring it.

This Sisters have a daily shower with hot water -or your convenient temperature- which is also a great help for warming yourself up.

As for the heat -like with everything else- ... you don't know what the body can take until you try it [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/shock.gif[/img] .
So basically you try not to think about it and to make peace with the sweat falling on the floor. A drink of cool water helps too.

[Saint Therese]

I think whether or not a superior is addressed as "Reverend" or not is up to the individual community.

[OCDSdad]

[quote name='HisChild' date='11 November 2009 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1257936139' post='2000595']
I too have heard "Once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite". From the time I was enrolled in the scapular, I knew that my vocation whatever turn it would take, I would be Carmelite even if that meant Secular Carmelite.

I so enjoy reading discerner stories, I am so edified by this phorum. I know this is off topic but the phrase: "Once Carmelite, Always Carmelite" struck me tenderly. I came to know Carmel in the late '70's when I joined TOC. It was a "rocky" time and I was too imature to persevere so I left it. For 35 years I longed for Carmel and just brushed it off but here, about 2.5 years ago I leaped into OCDS and I feel so at "home". Sorry about the hijack...
Mr. Ray
OCDS

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='OCDSdad' date='16 November 2009 - 06:15 PM' timestamp='1258409757' post='2003884']
[quote name='HisChild' date='11 November 2009 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1257936139' post='2000595']
I too have heard "Once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite". From the time I was enrolled in the scapular, I knew that my vocation whatever turn it would take, I would be Carmelite even if that meant Secular Carmelite.

I so enjoy reading discerner stories, I am so edified by this phorum. I know this is off topic but the phrase: "Once Carmelite, Always Carmelite" struck me tenderly. I came to know Carmel in the late '70's when I joined TOC. It was a "rocky" time and I was too imature to persevere so I left it. For 35 years I longed for Carmel and just brushed it off but here, about 2.5 years ago I leaped into OCDS and I feel so at "home". Sorry about the hijack...
Mr. Ray
OCDS
[/quote]



I too have found this to be so true for me; "Once a Carmelite always a Carmelite." For me as much as I love and appreciate the beauty of other charisms and spiritualities, Carmel IS home for me, and I thank God every day for the gift of my vocation !

Tenderly

Indwelling Trinity

Edited November 17, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[HisChild]

[quote name='OCDSdad' date='16 November 2009 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1258409757' post='2003884']
[quote name='HisChild' date='11 November 2009 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1257936139' post='2000595']
I too have heard "Once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite". From the time I was enrolled in the scapular, I knew that my vocation whatever turn it would take, I would be Carmelite even if that meant Secular Carmelite.

I so enjoy reading discerner stories, I am so edified by this phorum. I know this is off topic but the phrase: "Once Carmelite, Always Carmelite" struck me tenderly. I came to know Carmel in the late '70's when I joined TOC. It was a "rocky" time and I was too imature to persevere so I left it. For 35 years I longed for Carmel and just brushed it off but here, about 2.5 years ago I leaped into OCDS and I feel so at "home". Sorry about the hijack...
Mr. Ray
OCDS
[/quote]


Is this the Mr. Ray, father of Lori (can't remember her user name)?