T-Bone _ Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='T-Bone _' date='13 November 2009 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1258166054' post='2002451'] The prison chaplains aren't usually prisoners, though. [/quote] [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1258166155' post='2002453'] They're also not participating in killing. ~Sternhauser [/quote] You did accuse military chaplains of participating in killing.
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='T-Bone _' date='13 November 2009 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1258167483' post='2002468'] You did accuse military chaplains of participating in killing. [/quote] No, I did not. Read what I actually wrote, again. When I said "they are not participating in killing," I was speaking of military chaplains, just as when I was speaking of prison chaplains, I was making an allegory to the military chaplains, by saying that the prison chaplains were not criminals, just as the military chaplains are not killing. It is not acceptable for a military chaplain to kill on behalf of politicians, just as it is not acceptable for a prison chaplain to commit a crime. ~Sternhauser
Paladin D Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1258165290' post='2002440'] Prisons have chaplains, too. Does that make it acceptable to do that which is necessary to become a convict? [/quote] Correct me if I misread your statement, but are you lumping us (those that wear the uniform) together with criminals? [url="http://www.catholicmil.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1532:veterans-day-message-from-fr-corapi&catid=54:other&Itemid=171"]Veterans Day Message from Fr. Corapi [/url] [quote]Every year in the United States of America we celebrate "Veterans' Day" on November 11th, which historically marked the armistice (originally Armistice Day) ending World War I. If you are interested in the history of this American holiday, you can easily find it using Google, or any web search engine. We should all be very thankful for the service of our veterans. Our country and the freedoms we sometimes take for granted were won by, and constantly protected by, the veterans of our Armed Forces. My grandfather served in the US Army during World War I; my father in the Navy Seabees in the South Pacific, some of my uncles served in the Marines, the Navy, and the Air Force during the Korean War. I enlisted in the Army in the late 1960s myself. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, "a sure norm for teaching the faith," as Pope John Paul II asserted, says this about military service in paragraph #2310, quoting "Gaudium et Spes": "Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace." It is the obligation of all of us, individuals and governments alike, to work assiduously for peace. As my Grandmother often said to me, "war is hell." She knew as she had a husband and son that fought in both world wars, had nephews and a grandson go off to faraway places. She prayed, worried, and suffered because of war. Nonetheless, she knew, like so many of us do, that without the sacrifices of themselves and their loved ones, there would be no enduring freedom. There is always something to be learned from the natural order that can be applied to the spiritual and moral life. One of the most common underlying misconceptions and fallacious presuppositions is that there is no evil in the world, that no one will hurt you if you just don't hurt them. Wrong! There is evil in the world, there has been since darkness entered into Eden, and there will be until Jesus comes again in glory. There is good and there is evil; there is truth and there are lies; there is life and there is death. Being neutral is a myth. Sitting on a fence is an accident waiting to happen. In the end you will be "for me or against me," as Jesus says. We are at war and "our battle is not against flesh and blood," as St. Paul asserts in his letter to the Ephesians. A good soldier is ready to shed his blood, sweat, and tears for the cause of freedom. Jesus tells us, "I've come to set the captives free." The servant is no better, no different, than his Master. The bottom line of war is victory, and this war is for an eternal prize. We honor our veterans this week, and rightly so. Let their sacrifices for our country inspire you to even higher things. You and I are called to fight the good fight and run the race to the finish line. Performing our mission as good Catholics and Christians affects countless other souls, some we know, some we don't. So, as St. Paul cautions us, "Don't shadow box. Fight so as to win." Don't imagine there is not a moral and spiritual war either. This fight results in victory or defeat, Heaven or hell, forever. God bless you.[/quote] Edited November 14, 2009 by Paladin D
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Paladin D' date='13 November 2009 - 11:53 PM' timestamp='1258170785' post='2002480'] Correct me if I misread your statement, but are you lumping us (those that wear the uniform) together with criminals?[/quote] Not all those who wear uniforms are criminals. But those who deliberately kill innocents are criminals, whatever kind of uniform they are wearing. Politicians are the people who send the military to kill. If you trust their moral judgment when it comes to what a "just war" is . . . [quote]Pope John Paul II asserted, says this about military service in paragraph #2310, quoting "Gaudium et Spes": "Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations." [/quote] German soldiers in WWII swore to serve their "country" in the armed forces. The Japanese Imperial army swore to serve their "country." Were they, [i]de facto, [/i]the "servants of the security and freedom of nations?" If you want to deny that the Wehrmacht and the Imperial Japanese Army were "servants of the security and freedom of nations," then you have to do some logical tap dancing around what John Paul II said. The fact is, serving the State by doing violence against whoever they tell you to kill does not, by its nature, equal "serving your country." Period. And for any who are reading this and cannot discern a logical argument on its own terms, "No, I am not, as a matter of fact, saying that United State troops are the moral equivalent of German stormtroopers or aggressors in the Bataan death march." ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser
CatherineM Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Paladin D' date='13 November 2009 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1258170785' post='2002480'] Correct me if I misread your statement, but are you lumping us (those that wear the uniform) together with criminals? [/quote] Yeah pretty much.
Paladin D Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Sternhauser' date='14 November 2009 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1258171437' post='2002483'] Not all those who wear uniforms are criminals. But those who deliberately kill innocents are criminals, whatever kind of uniform they are wearing. ~Sternhauser [/quote] I don't think you'll find any sane person here who would disagree with you. Anyone who serves in the military who [b]deliberately[/b] takes the life of an [b]innocent[/b] person is a scumbag anyway. You projected however, that we are killing scores of innocent people. We aren't doing it, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are. Edited November 14, 2009 by Paladin D
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Paladin D' date='14 November 2009 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1258171630' post='2002487'] I don't think you'll find any sane person here who would disagree with you. Anyone who serves in the military who [b]deliberately[/b] takes the life of an [b]innocent[/b] person is a scumbag anyway. You projected however, that we are killing scores of innocent people. We aren't doing it, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are. [/quote] You are killing people in a place that then Pope John Paul II said it would be unjust to invade in the first place. Does killing the defenders of their homeland become moral once you've unjustly invaded? Or was John Paul II simply wrong? But [i]I'm[/i] the bad guy for suggesting the Pope may have been right, and not George Bush? I know what you would be doing if you were a civilian and the Russians invaded the United State on the claim that "you have weapons of mass destruction," "regime change," then "securing democracy." You would be planting IED's for BMP-2's and shooting anyone wearing a Russian uniform. And the Russians would call you a "terrorist" an "extremist," and an "insurgent." ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Do you trust the moral judgment of the politicians who send your generals, who in turn send you to kill, Paladin? ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser
Lounge Daddy Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='14 November 2009 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1258171437' post='2002483'] ... German soldiers in WWII swore to serve their "country" in the armed forces. The Japanese Imperial army swore to serve their "country." Were they, [i]de facto, [/i]the "servants of the security and freedom of nations?" ... [/quote] I believe that in most every war, both sides are guilty for not doing enough to avoid it in the first place.
Lounge Daddy Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='14 November 2009 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1258172693' post='2002492'] Do you trust the moral judgment of the politicians who send your generals, who in turn send you to kill, Paladin? ~Sternhauser [/quote] You aren't talking about the politicians who say it's ok to kill babies, and also ok to take money from the general citizenry to fund the killing of said babies, are you?
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='14 November 2009 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1258174428' post='2002502'] You aren't talking about the politicians who say it's ok to kill babies, and also ok to take money from the general citizenry to fund the killing of said babies, are you? [/quote] The same. ~Sternhauser
Maggyie Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1258165290' post='2002440'] Prisons have chaplains, too. Does that make it acceptable to do that which is necessary to become a convict? ~Sternhauser [/quote] Doing what is necessary to become a convict is usually sinful. Military service is NOT, in the eyes of the Church, a sin or in any way approaching a sin. In fact if it is a duty carried out properly, it is a positive good, as the Catechism explicitly states. When an officer serves poorly, failing in his duty to protect human dignity and minimize the loss of life, that's when the potential for sin begins. John Paul II did in fact speak out very strongly against the war in Iraq (not so much the war in Afghanistan) and I happen to agree with him. However he certainly did not advise anyone in any army that serving there would be a sin. I believe only one bishop in the entire world levied the penalty of interdiction on those of their flock who fought in Iraq (an Eastern Catholic bishop here in OH I think). Anyway, the argument could be made that only those involved in the first invading wave faced a moral problem, since those who have gone there since were charged mostly with peace keeping and restoring infrastructure etc, which the extremists choose to classify as "occupation" but which the Church has no problem with whatsoever.
Norseman82 Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 [img]http://wasteddomain.com/gallery/d/568-1/picard-sigh.jpg[/img]
IcePrincessKRS Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='14 November 2009 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1258172583' post='2002490'] But [i]I'm[/i] the bad guy for suggesting the Pope may have been right, and not George Bush? ~Sternhauser [/quote] No. But then again that wasn't your original premise in this thread. Your sweeping generalization was that all our soldiers, with the exception of chaplains, are all out there torturing and murdering innocents. Which is a total lie. [quote] "Not only a morally compromising position, but a full-blown near occasion of sin. Not sins of gluttony, or lust. Full-blown murder. The mafia and the military [b](especially the United State military) are probably the only two institutions that invariably threaten to kill you if you try to quit without their permission.[/b]"[/quote] This bolded section is also complete bullhockey. Clearly you don't have much experience with the military. If someone wants out of the Army (or any branch of our military, for that matter) there are lots ways for them to get out which don't end in death. We've seen it happen plenty. If you want to argue against the war in Iraq then maybe you should START with the Pope's comments instead of asinine assertions which are false.
picchick Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 The more I read this thread the more I become angry. [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1258172583' post='2002490'] You are killing people in a place that then Pope John Paul II said it would be unjust to invade in the first place. Does killing the defenders of their homeland become moral once you've unjustly invaded? Or was John Paul II simply wrong? But [i]I'm[/i] the bad guy for suggesting the Pope may have been right, and not George Bush? I know what you would be doing if you were a civilian and the Russians invaded the United State on the claim that "you have weapons of mass destruction," "regime change," then "securing democracy." You would be planting IED's for BMP-2's and shooting anyone wearing a Russian uniform. And the Russians would call you a "terrorist" an "extremist," and an "insurgent." ~Sternhauser [/quote] Now you are changing the subject. This is not what you started your thread with. Furthermore, you just don't have a problem with this war. You have a problem with every war. You are the bad guy because you condemn people who are in the military as bad Catholics (or suggest this) and downplay their motives for joining. [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1258172693' post='2002492'] Do you trust the moral judgment of the politicians who send your generals, who in turn send you to kill, Paladin? ~Sternhauser [/quote] What kind of pointed question is that? I am not going to answer for Paladin but I would not answer your stupid question. If he says "No" then you will question his joining the military. If he says, "Yes" he is likewise condemned by your judgement. Stop judging the troops, Sternhauser. Just stop. You can judge the war the motives of the war, the politicians but just stop judging the troops. You cannot read the hearts of solidiers. You cannot know why the signed up or what caused them. You will never be able to understand what is in their heart and souls. Really the only people who can understand are fellow soldiers and families.
Didymus Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) I am no moral theologian, so I am may be in no place to judge what is or is not matter for sin, but with the state of the U.S. military currently, I would advise anyone to weigh their options before entering the service. It is no light decision, and I would hope everyone making that decision to know their own reasons as well as giving rational and reasoned thought as to the practices of any military that assumed the need to be almost at constant war before entering as a soldier proper (rather than a chaplain, nurse or doctor, or anything else non-combatant.) One thing that I will in fact claim to be unfortunate is the reality that there are perhaps plenty of men and women in the service who are there allowing themselves to be put in harm's way not so much because it was perhaps a calling that they aspired to but rather because their own economic situation demanded that they make such a decision to enlist. As a society and as a country we should consider this to be a very serious and important issue. Edited November 14, 2009 by Didymus
KnightofChrist Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) The days when people would just simply respected and honored the military seem very much dead and a thing of the past. Yet I have not forgotten, nor shall I as long as I am alive. Edited November 14, 2009 by KnightofChrist
Lounge Daddy Posted November 15, 2009 Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='Didymus' date='14 November 2009 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1258240841' post='2002879'] I am no moral theologian, so I am may be in no place to judge what is or is not matter for sin, but with the state of the U.S. military currently, I would advise anyone to weigh their options before entering the service. It is no light decision, and I would hope everyone making that decision to know their own reasons as well as giving rational and reasoned thought as to the practices of any military that assumed the need to be almost at constant war ... [/quote] I entirely agree. [quote name='Sternhauser' date='14 November 2009 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1258171437' post='2002483'] ... German soldiers in WWII swore to serve their "country" in the armed forces. The Japanese Imperial army swore to serve their "country." Were they, [i]de facto, [/i]the "servants of the security and freedom of nations?" ... [/quote] And it is important to keep in mind that many of members of the German military and the Japanese had no choice. The U.S. military is entirely a free choice.
CatherineM Posted November 15, 2009 Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='Didymus' date='14 November 2009 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1258240841' post='2002879'] One thing that I will in fact claim to be unfortunate is the reality that there are perhaps plenty of men and women in the service who are there allowing themselves to be put in harm's way not so much because it was perhaps a calling that they aspired to but rather because their own economic situation demanded that they make such a decision to enlist. As a society and as a country we should consider this to be a very serious and important issue. [/quote] That can be said for many jobs that we do to support a family that are quite dangerous. Firemen, Policemen, guys who demolish buildings, miners, high steel workers, sky scraper window cleaners, even taxi drivers in certain cities, do dangerous jobs. They do it because the job as president of microsoft is taken, and their kids need new shoes occasionally.
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