Ecumenism Revisted

[mortify]

[img]http://www.fma.ie/images/pope_benedict_ecumenism_2.jpg[/img]

[u]From the Catechism:[/u]
[color="#0000FF"]819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as [color="#FF0000"]means of salvation[/color], whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276[/color]

[u]Questions:[/u]
(1) In what way are non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities a means of salvation? Is it by directing souls to Catholicism, or do they really contain salvation independent of the visible Church?

(2) What is the "unity" Catholics and non-Catholics are called to? Is it another word for bringing souls into Catholicism, since true unity is found *in* the visible Church, or is it a unity that permits those visibly outside to remain outside?


Thanks

[Dave]

[quote name='mortify' date='12 November 2009 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1258005283' post='2001160']
[img]http://www.fma.ie/images/pope_benedict_ecumenism_2.jpg[/img]

[u]From the Catechism:[/u]
[color="#0000FF"]819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as [color="#FF0000"]means of salvation[/color], whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276[/color]

[u]Questions:[/u]
(1) In what way are non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities a means of salvation? Is it by directing souls to Catholicism, or do they really contain salvation independent of the visible Church?

(2) What is the "unity" Catholics and non-Catholics are called to? Is it another word for bringing souls into Catholicism, since true unity is found *in* the visible Church, or is it a unity that permits those visibly outside to remain outside?


Thanks
[/quote]

1. While non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities have a lot of false teachings, they also contain true teachings (and whatever true teachings they do have are teachings that the Catholic Church has anyhow). Non-Catholic religions aren't salvific in themselves. Thus, if a non-Catholic is saved, it's BECAUSE of Christ and His Church, never in spite of it. Yet, for all the errors non-Catholic religions have, we shouldn't overlook the fact that they do have some truths (some more than others). And the truths they do have can potentially help guide people to the full truth found only in Catholicism. So I'd say that non-Catholic faiths are means of salvation insofar as they help lead people to Catholicism.

2. The unity Catholics and non-Catholics are called to is definitely bringing souls into Catholicism so that there may finally be one flock under one shepherd.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mortify' date='11 November 2009 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1258005283' post='2001160']
[img]http://www.fma.ie/images/pope_benedict_ecumenism_2.jpg[/img]

[u]From the Catechism:[/u]
[color="#0000FF"]819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as [color="#FF0000"]means of salvation[/color], whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276[/color]

[u]Questions:[/u]
(1) In what way are non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities a means of salvation? Is it by directing souls to Catholicism, or do they really contain salvation independent of the visible Church?[/quote]

I'll just address the first question as to how I'm beginning to come to terms with it...

One example: The sacrament of baptism is valid within many non-Catholic communities. [b]Denzinger 2304[/b]:

"To this Supreme Sacred Congregation ... the question has been proposed:

"Whether, in judging matrimonial cases, baptism conferred in the sects of the Disciples of Christ, the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Baptists, Methodists, when the necessary matter and form have been used, is to be presumed as invalid because of the lack of the required intention in the minister of doing what the Church does, or what Christ instituted or whether it is to be presumed as valid unless in a particular case it is proven to the contrary." The reply: In the negative to the first part; in the affirmative to the second."

and St. Thomas Aquinas explains [[b]S.T. III, Q. 64, Art. 8, reply obj. 2[/b]] that the minister of a sacrament expresses the intention of the Church in the words he utters in conferring the sacrament, and that "this suffices for the validity of the sacrament, except the contrary be expressed on the part either of the minister or of the recipient of the sacrament."

"if his faith be defective in regard to the very sacrament that he confers, although he believe that no inward effect is caused by the thing done outwardly, yet he does know that the Catholic Church intends to confer a sacrament by that which is outwardly done. Wherefore, his unbelief notwithstanding, he can intend to do what the Church does, albeit he esteem it to be nothing. And such an intention suffices for a sacrament: because as stated above ([b]A. 8, ad 2[/b]) the minister of a sacrament acts in the person of the Church by whose faith any defect in the minister's faith is made good [[b]Art. 9[/b]].

Especially in the case of infant baptism the recipient truly receives a means to salvation and are truly a member of the Catholic Church, at least until the time where s/he freely chooses to be a member of the non-Catholic religion. These non-Catholic churches, while having the grace which baptism gives, are not the source of the grace. Instead, their power (i.e. ability to be a means to salvation) is derived from the grace of the sacrament as it was entrusted to the Catholic Church alone. So to say that they ARE the means of salvation, I think, is incorrect as the sacrament of baptism that they are performing essentially makes the recipient a member of the Catholic Church (thus the Catholic Church being essentially the source of the grace and salvation which baptism imparts) and as this catechism section points out, the other churches aren't inherently the means of salvation itself, but simply can be used by the Holy Spirit as such. To say that something is used as a means to salvation doesn't equal saying that there is salvation outside the Church. It would simply mean that the salvation itself is in the Catholic Church, and God can use some non-Catholic churches as a way to achieve this salvation (which is in the Catholic Church alone).

Does one evil (heresy etc.) always and completely negate a good (baptism, other grace?)? Not always:

"Good is threefold. One kind of good is wholly destroyed by evil, and this is the good opposed to evil, as light is wholly destroyed by darkness, and sight by blindness. Another kind of good is neither wholly destroyed nor diminished by evil, and that is the good which is the subject of evil; for by darkness the substance of the air is not injured. And there is also a kind of good which is diminished by evil, but is not wholly taken away; and this good is the aptitude of a subject to some actuality [[b]St. Thomas Aquinas, S.T. I, Q. 48, Art. 4[/b]]."

So, not every good is wholly destroyed by evil. The good of the baptism of infants is neither destroyed nor diminished by the evil of heresy held by the one who administers the baptism or the church he belongs to. Validly baptized babies receive the full beneficial effects of baptism and are incorporated into the Catholic Church, DESPITE the evils of the church by which the sacrament came, not BECAUSE of it. But they still receive it, nonetheless.


It is often commented that God will always bring something good out of something bad. It would seem He does so here by using certain non-Catholic churches as a means of salvation, through the grace of Baptism.

Edited November 12, 2009 by goldenchild17

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='12 November 2009 - 03:33 AM' timestamp='1258014790' post='2001204']
I'll just address the first question as to how I'm beginning to come to terms with it...

One example: The sacrament of baptism is valid within many non-Catholic communities. [b]Denzinger 2304[/b]:

"To this Supreme Sacred Congregation ... the question has been proposed:

"Whether, in judging matrimonial cases, baptism conferred in the sects of the Disciples of Christ, the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Baptists, Methodists, when the necessary matter and form have been used, is to be presumed as invalid because of the lack of the required intention in the minister of doing what the Church does, or what Christ instituted or whether it is to be presumed as valid unless in a particular case it is proven to the contrary." The reply: In the negative to the first part; in the affirmative to the second."

and St. Thomas Aquinas explains [[b]S.T. III, Q. 64, Art. 8, reply obj. 2[/b]] that the minister of a sacrament expresses the intention of the Church in the words he utters in conferring the sacrament, and that "this suffices for the validity of the sacrament, except the contrary be expressed on the part either of the minister or of the recipient of the sacrament."

"if his faith be defective in regard to the very sacrament that he confers, although he believe that no inward effect is caused by the thing done outwardly, yet he does know that the Catholic Church intends to confer a sacrament by that which is outwardly done. Wherefore, his unbelief notwithstanding, he can intend to do what the Church does, albeit he esteem it to be nothing. And such an intention suffices for a sacrament: because as stated above ([b]A. 8, ad 2[/b]) the minister of a sacrament acts in the person of the Church by whose faith any defect in the minister's faith is made good [[b]Art. 9[/b]].

Especially in the case of infant baptism the recipient truly receives a means to salvation and are truly a member of the Catholic Church, at least until the time where s/he freely chooses to be a member of the non-Catholic religion. These non-Catholic churches, while having the grace which baptism gives, are not the source of the grace. Instead, their power (i.e. ability to be a means to salvation) is derived from the grace of the sacrament as it was entrusted to the Catholic Church alone. So to say that they ARE the means of salvation, I think, is incorrect as the sacrament of baptism that they are performing essentially makes the recipient a member of the Catholic Church (thus the Catholic Church being essentially the source of the grace and salvation which baptism imparts) and as this catechism section points out, the other churches aren't inherently the means of salvation itself, but simply can be used by the Holy Spirit as such. To say that something is used as a means to salvation doesn't equal saying that there is salvation outside the Church. It would simply mean that the salvation itself is in the Catholic Church, and God can use some non-Catholic churches as a way to achieve this salvation (which is in the Catholic Church alone).

Does one evil (heresy etc.) always and completely negate a good (baptism, other grace?)? Not always:

"Good is threefold. One kind of good is wholly destroyed by evil, and this is the good opposed to evil, as light is wholly destroyed by darkness, and sight by blindness. Another kind of good is neither wholly destroyed nor diminished by evil, and that is the good which is the subject of evil; for by darkness the substance of the air is not injured. And there is also a kind of good which is diminished by evil, but is not wholly taken away; and this good is the aptitude of a subject to some actuality [[b]St. Thomas Aquinas, S.T. I, Q. 48, Art. 4[/b]]."

So, not every good is wholly destroyed by evil. The good of the baptism of infants is neither destroyed nor diminished by the evil of heresy held by the one who administers the baptism or the church he belongs to. Validly baptized babies receive the full beneficial effects of baptism and are incorporated into the Catholic Church, DESPITE the evils of the church by which the sacrament came, not BECAUSE of it. But they still receive it, nonetheless.


It is often commented that God will always bring something good out of something bad. It would seem He does so here by using certain non-Catholic churches as a means of salvation, through the grace of Baptism.
[/quote]

I agree with this.

[mortify]

This is what I gather so far...

1. Valid baptism unites a person to the Mystical Body of Christ

2. Non-Catholic ecclesial communities can possess valid baptism

3. Those validly baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community are united to the Mystical Body

4. Many of these validly baptized persons are not guilty of the sin of separation

5. Such Christians are imperfectly united to the Church

6. The goal of Ecumenism is to bring these souls into full and complete union

7. This union exists in the visible Church of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church

[Veridicus]

[quote name='mortify' date='14 November 2009 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1258177909' post='2002523']
This is what I gather so far...

1. Valid baptism unites a person to the Mystical Body of Christ

2. Non-Catholic ecclesial communities can possess valid baptism

3. Those validly baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community are united to the Mystical Body

4. Many of these validly baptized persons are not guilty of the sin of separation

5. Such Christians are imperfectly united to the Church

6. The goal of Ecumenism is to bring these souls into full and complete union

7. This union exists in the visible Church of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church
[/quote]

That seems like an appopriate summary.

[Apotheoun]

Would simply change point number seven to read as follows:

[quote]7. This union exists in the visible Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.[/quote]

The Catholic Church is composed of twenty-three self-governing Churches, and so not all Catholics are "Roman" Catholic.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 November 2009 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1258229482' post='2002728']
Would simply change point number seven to read as follows:

The Catholic Church is composed of twenty-three self-governing Churches, and so not all Catholics are "Roman" Catholic.
[/quote]

What visibly unites all Catholics is that we share the same faith, the same sacraments, and are under the same authority.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' date='14 November 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1258233190' post='2002814']
What visibly unites all Catholics is that we share the same faith, the same sacraments, and are under the same authority.
[/quote]
It is Christ Himself who visibly unites all Catholics, for He is the Lord made man, and I am united to Christ through my Patriarch, as the head of the Melkite Church, just as you are united to Christ through your Patriarch, the bishop of Rome.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='mortify' date='14 November 2009 - 04:13 PM' timestamp='1258233190' post='2002814']
What visibly unites all Catholics is that we share the same faith, the same sacraments, and are under the same authority.
[/quote]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mortify' date='14 November 2009 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1258233190' post='2002814']
What visibly unites all Catholics is that we share the same faith, the same sacraments, and are under the same authority.
[/quote]

+1 (in spirit)

[mortify]

Is there a document that explicitly states the goal of ecumenism is to bring separated brethern into the Catholic Church?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mortify' date='16 November 2009 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1258436897' post='2004158']
Is there a document that explicitly states the goal of ecumenism is to bring separated brethern into the Catholic Church?
[/quote]

Post vatican II? I'm not certain. I'm not able right now to sit down and look through any of the longer documents, but maybe we could start with this:

Catechism of the Catholic Church in its section on unity and ecumenism:

"822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize "that this holy objective - [b]the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ[/b] - transcends human powers and gifts." That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='mortify' date='17 November 2009 - 12:48 AM' timestamp='1258436897' post='2004158']
Is there a document that explicitly states the goal of ecumenism is to bring separated brethern into the Catholic Church?
[/quote]

What other goal could there possibly be?

[goldenchild17]

I'll probably post some random things as I continue to read more on this subject but here's something interesting. Check out the whole link:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/montfort/Handbook/ecumen.htm

"In UR, the Council Fathers declared that baptized believers in Christ enjoy a certain communion with the Catholic Church, albeit imperfect. They have the right to call themselves Christians and should be looked on as brothers by members of the Catholic Church. Many good things of the Church’s life can exist outside her visible boundaries—the written Word of God, the life of grace, the theological virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements (UR 3). At the same time, the council strongly emphasized that the engagement of the Catholic Church in the ecumenical movement did not signify any change in her unique claims. It is in her, the visible society governed by Peter’s successor and the bishops in communion with him, that the one Church of Christ subsists.3 The separated brethren are not blessed with that unity which Christ wished to bestow on the members of his Body. It is through the Catholic Church alone that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained (LG 8). Thus Christian unity, [b]the goal of ecumenism, does not mean the construction, through ecclesiastical mergers, of some utopian "new" Church, but rather the gathering of all Christians "into the unity of the one and only Church."[/b] This essential unity will increase until the end of time, but it nevertheless already "subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose."4"

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mortify' date='16 November 2009 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1258436897' post='2004158']
Is there a document that explicitly states the goal of ecumenism is to bring separated brethern into the Catholic Church?
[/quote]

A quick scan of V2's Decree on Ecumenism brought up a few lines I'll post. It does seem to stress the dialogue and understanding part that I think everybody is quick to jump to and which many people (in my opinion) put too much importance on. Not that it isn't important, but it would seem that the dialogue and understanding of other religions should be more appropriately a preface to the actual attempt at conversion. In the Decree on Ecumenism it talks about a "spiritual ecumenism" as a first step in that if we are to ably bring people into the Church we must first change ourselves by being more charitable and living a more holy life. Then there is the dialogue and how it is to remove the obstacles that stand in the way of bring people into the Church, but that the conversion of people to the Church is the actual end and purpose of ecumenism:

"When such actions are undertaken prudently and patiently by the Catholic faithful, with the attentive guidance of their bishops, they promote justice and truth, concord and collaboration, as well as the spirit of brotherly love and unity. This is the way that, when the obstacles to perfect ecclesiastical communion have been gradually overcome, all Christians will at last, in a common celebration of the Eucharist, [b]be gathered into the one and only Church in that unity which Christ bestowed on His Church from the beginning. We believe that this unity subsists in the Catholic Church[/b] as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."


Is bringing non-Catholics, even Protestants, the goal of ecumenism? I think so, although this very easily gets overlooked or even ignored quite often in my opinion, but when you look at the source of the teaching of ecumenism the end result that is hoped for is unity within the Catholic Church:

"The Council moreover professes its awareness that human powers and capacities cannot achieve this [b]holy objective-the reconciling of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ.[/b] It is because of this that the Council rests all its hope on the prayer of Christ for the Church, on our Father's love for us, and on the power of the Holy Spirit."

Edited November 18, 2009 by goldenchild17

[goldenchild17]

JPII's Ut Unum Sint has an interesting comment regarding the nature of the Church. Many opponents of the new ecumenism argue that it does not intend to bring people into the Catholic Church, but actually aims at taking all of the elements that are good in all faiths and creating some new Church. JPII seems to squash that idea here. Speaking about the elements of salvation (those which constitute the imperfect communion with the Church) he says:

"14. All these elements bear within themselves a tendency towards unity, having their fullness in that unity. [b]It is not a matter of adding together all the riches scattered throughout the various Christian Communities in order to arrive at a Church which God has in mind for the future.[/b] In accordance with the great Tradition, attested to by the Fathers of the East and of the West, the Catholic Church believes that in the Pentecost Event God has already manifested the Church in her eschatological reality, which he had prepared "from the time of Abel, the just one".19 This reality is something already given. Consequently we are even now in the last times. The elements of this already-given Church exist, found in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other Communities,20 where certain features of the Christian mystery have at times been more effectively emphasized. Ecumenism is directed precisely to making the partial communion existing between Christians grow towards full communion in truth and charity."

[goldenchild17]

Again from JPII saying basically the same thing. The goal is not to form a new, better Church from the good elements of all, but to bring them into the Catholic Church which is already that which God intended, since Pentecost:

"It is not merely a matter of gathering up all the spiritual riches scattered throughout the Christian communities, as if in so doing we might arrive at a more perfect Church, the Church God would desire for the future. Instead, it is a question of bringing about fully that Church which God already manifested in her profound reality at Pentecost."

Pope John Paul II General Audience July 12, 1995

[goldenchild17]

mortify, in case you didn't know, that was me over on the thread on fisheaters. Meant to let you know before.

[goldenchild17]

A couple examples from history. At the council of Trent Pope Eugene IV reached out to some of the leaders of the Orthodox churches in an aim at unity:

"Eugenius, bishop, servant of the servants of God, for an everlasting record. It befits us to render thanks to almighty God. … For behold, the western and eastern peoples, who have been separated for long, hasten to enter into a pact of harmony and unity; and those who were justly distressed at the long dissension that kept them apart, at last after many centuries, under the impulse of Him from whom every good gift comes, meet together in person in this place out of desire for holy union."

Pope Eugene says that efforts toward such unity is our obligation:

"We are aware that it is our duty and the duty of the whole church to strain every nerve to ensure that these happy initiatives make progress and have issue through our common care, so that we may deserve to be and to be called co-operators with God."


In regards to how we may address non-Catholics, whether we should use the term heretics or infidels or what-have-you, or if a more respectful terminology may be used, the answer isn't defined in the following statement, but it does give precedent to more respectful language. Eugene IV refers to some of the schismatic Eastern Orthodox patriarchs as son, brother and patriarchs:

"Finally, our most dear son John Palacologus, emperor of the Romans, together with our venerable brother Joseph, patriarch of Constantinople, the apocrisiaries of the other patriarchal sees and a great multitude of archbishops, ecclesiastics and nobles arrived at their last port, Venice, on 8 February last."



In regard to Protestants, and particularly the questionable allowance of them to take part in some Vatican II activities. An example of precedence set might be found at the Council of Trent. Protestants were offered safe passage to the council, to share their views, offers proposals for discussion, etc.

"[b]SAFE-CONDUCT GRANTED TO PROTESTANTS[/b]

The sacred and holy, general Synod of Trent,-lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same Legate and Nuncios of the holy Apostolic See presiding therein,-grants, as far as regards the holy Synod itself, to all and each one throughout the whole of Germany, whether ecclesiastics or Seculars, of whatsoever degree, estate, condition, quality they be, who may wish to repair to this oecumenical and general Council, the public faith and full security, which they call a safe-conduct, with all and each of the necessary and suitable clauses and decrees, even though they ought to be expressed specifically and not in general terms, and which it is Its wish shall be considered as expressed, so as that they may and shall have it in their power in all liberty to confer, make proposals, and treat on those things which are to be treated of in the said Synod; to come freely and safely to the said oecumenical Council, and there remain and abide, and propose therein, as well in writing as by word of mouth, as many articles as to them shall seem good, and to confer and dispute, without any abuse or contumely, with the Fathers, or with those who may have been selected by the said holy Synod; as also to withdraw whensoever they shall think fit. It hath furthermore seemed good to the holy Synod, that if, for their greater liberty and security, they desire that certain judges be deputed on their behalf, in regard of crimes whether committed, or that may be committed, by them, they shall themselves nominate those who are favourable towards them, even though the said crimes should be ever so enormous and should savour of heresy. "