Deserving Of Death Penalty?

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='22 November 2009 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1258898071' post='2007267']
It's obvious to me you've never visited prison or know any convicted felons well....[/quote]

I don't see your point. The prison system is a horrific institution that breaks up families, incarcerates people for victimless crimes, and turns people into criminals while they're inside, all on the backs of the taxpayers, including the victims of actual criminals. Let's start by releasing the 20% of the prison population in there for nonviolent drug crimes. Those people should get medical help and be allowed to be productive members of society. Locking them in dungeons helps [i]no one[/i] other than wardens, judges, DAs and DEA officers.

[quote]Under voluntaryism if you steal $1,000 and you must forfeit $1,000, isn't that a buck for a buck?[/quote]

The point is that it compensates the victim. An-eye-for-an-eye doesn't compensate the victim or help him in anyway, other than to give him a primitive thrill of vengeance.

[quote]What if you rape or kill someone in a fit of rage, but aren't likely to get that angry again.[/quote]

In my voluntary, free market world, each case would have to be handled on an individual basis between the accused, the accuser or his next-of-kin, and a mutually arbitrator or mediator. Doubtless, a voluntary society would come up with ways to nullify truly dangerous people.

One speculation I had was that compensation for damages would be monetary, however, it may be that in cases of murder, the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weregild"]weregild[/url] would be so high that it would mean the murderer would have to have all his property liquidated and still be in debt bondage to the victim's next-of-kin, perhaps for life. That would likely mean the perpetrator, being a bonded laborer, would be kept safely under surveillance, not necessarily by the victim's next-of-kin himself, but perhaps on a labor camp. That's just my personal speculation, and you can disagree with it. The larger point is that in a free society, competing private judges, juries, and arbitration systems would likely come up with all kinds of means for satisfactorily compensating victims for damages. Humans beings don't require monopolistic top-down controls; in a voluntary and non-aggressive society they have a wonderful tendency to create spontaneous order. Just look at the Internet.

Why does Bernie Madoff need to be in prison? He's not likely to go hog wild and kill anyone with a machete. Why can't he be on the outside working to compensate his victims?

[quote]you don't believe in consequences as being a deterent.[/quote]

A much more useful deterrent than state-enforced spankings is the deterrent of social and economic ostracization, which would be another vitally important way for a free society to impose law and order. Who would sign contracts with a known contract-breaker? It's much like how creditors are less likely to lend to a person with a known bad credit history or at least charge more, or how insurers will charge higher premiums for bad risks. Actions do have consequences even outside typical retaliatory justice.

[quote]Stealing is like an intrest free loan... [/quote]

If you're a private, competing arbitrator in my free market, voluntary society, you can consider granting victims of theft "interest" of some sort.

[quote]Where was Jesus for the little 9 year old girl and her parents?[/quote]

Well, God could have controlled the teenager's mind, thereby alienating her from her will and turning her into a mental slave. But should He have?

[HisChildForever]

The bottom line is that the Church does not rule out the use of the death penalty.

[HisChildForever]

King, if you were in charge of the justice system (God help us all), would you allow a rapist to stay on the street so long as he payed reparations to the victim?

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='22 November 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1258922219' post='2007380']
Rehabilitation is not carried out by "some guys in government-issued costumes" and to say so shows an extreme amount of ignorance on your part. Psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, and religious ministers provide mental health rehabilitation for inmates. In fact, corrections mental health counselor is one of the career options I am pursuing.[/quote]

It's not the role of a justice enforcers to do anything but enforce justice. If someone wants to go to a psychologist, let him go. There's no reason to impose it on him. All this stuff sounds like more social engineering and on my tax dollars too. The whole "corrections" system is a socially destructive statist scam that destroys families, wreaks suffering on the nonviolent, and turn noncriminals into criminals. Crime is its bread-and-butter, after all. If I may be so bold, I think you should become a defense attorney and work to protect people from this failed and unjust system.

[quote]As to your statement that "rehabilitation's a job for the confessional booth," allow me to quote John Paul II in his letter “To the Cardinal Major Penitentiary” -

[b]“One would not be justified, however, in wanting to transform the sacrament of Penance into psychoanalysis or psychotherapy. The confessional is not and cannot be an alternative to the psychoanalyst's or psychotherapist's office. Nor can one expect the sacrament of Penance to heal truly pathological conditions. The confessor is not a healer or a physician in the technical sense of the term; in fact, if the condition of the penitent seems to require medical care, the confessor should not deal with the matter himself, but should send the penitent to competent and honest professionals.”[/b]
[/quote]

I guess I was thinking true rehabilitation, as in repentance. But if a person wishes to see a shrink or a counselor to help them solve a problem, they're entitled; it still is no justification for the prison-industrial complex.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 November 2009 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1258922375' post='2007383']In other words, you disagree with Genesis 9:6. Such is life in a relativistic age.

It is the duty of the state to mete out justice, while no one may privately act in such a way.[/quote]

What's more relativistic then saying the some arbitrary gang of people with badges and banners have authority to slaughter other individuals. What imbues them with that right?

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='22 November 2009 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1258923532' post='2007393']
The bottom line is that the Church does not rule out the use of the death penalty.
[/quote]

She doesn't rule it in either; she doesn't compel it to ever be done or mandate that anyone has to accept it in this or that circumstance. I don't not see any circumstances in which I find it acceptable in our society. But, for example, if you and George and Fred and Wilhelmina were shipwrecked on an island and you saw George killing Fred in his asleep, I would accept you executing George to protect yourself and Wilhelmina.

[quote]
King, if you were in charge of the justice system (God help us all), would you allow a rapist to stay on the street so long as he payed reparations to the victim?[/quote]

If I were in charge of a justice system, I would resign. In the end, these things should be decided by competing individuals and institutions in a free and voluntary society, not by a monopolistic, enforced, territorial "system." Also, in a free and voluntary society, all streets would be owned by private individuals; there would be none I could allow him on without the consent of the owner.

Actually, I already said that truly dangerous individuals can be confined somehow. This debate was originally about the death penalty. You shifted to a debate of prisons. I simply argued that the prison system today goes far beyond any reasonable purpose for imprisonment today. Perpetrators of victimless crimes should be freed at the very least. And the Bernie Madoffs who committed actual crimes but still present no real threat "on the streets" should be, perhaps, put under surveillance simply to ensure that they were working to recuperate their victims' losses as much as possible.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='22 November 2009 - 04:13 PM' timestamp='1258924395' post='2007400']
What's more relativistic then saying the some arbitrary gang of people with badges and banners have authority to slaughter other individuals. What imbues them with that right?
[/quote]

Not what, but who. God. God has given the State the authority.

[b] Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, [u]those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.[/u] (CCC 2265)[/b]

Who has given them the authority but God?

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='22 November 2009 - 05:32 PM' timestamp='1258925541' post='2007411']
Not what, but who. God. God has given the State the authority.

[b] Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, [u]those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.[/u] (CCC 2265)[/b]

Who has given them the authority but God?
[/quote]

Well, I've already been through all this on [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=99553&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1"]the anarchy thread[/url].

[HisChildForever]

Thanks, I'll look it over when I can.

[BG45]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='22 November 2009 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1258920028' post='2007359']
Here we go again...I totally accept that the modern prison system is a disastrous, barbaric, dangerous, criminal-making failure. The answer is [i]not[/i] to kill all the prisoners.
[/quote]

I never said that it was however.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='22 November 2009 - 04:27 PM' timestamp='1258925277' post='2007406']
If I were in charge of a justice system, I would resign. In the end, these things should be decided by competing individuals and institutions in a free and voluntary society, not by a monopolistic, enforced, territorial "system." Also, in a free and voluntary society, all streets would be owned by private individuals; there would be none I could allow him on without the consent of the owner.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, we live in a fallen world. Your thoughts, while ideal, cannot be realistically applied.

[Anomaly]

I'm sorry. King thought this question was for him. It isn't.

Where was Jesus for the little 9 year old girl and her parents? How does God's justice work for her, her siblings, her parents, her grandparents?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='22 November 2009 - 05:08 PM' timestamp='1258934933' post='2007556']
I'm sorry. King thought this question was for him. It isn't.

Where was Jesus for the little 9 year old girl and her parents? How does God's justice work for her, her siblings, her parents, her grandparents?
[/quote]
Where was Jesus when I broke my back and was paralyzed for eight months?

Where was Jesus when my father died of pancreatic cancer at the age of 58?

Where was Jesus when my grand aunt was killed by a drunk driver in a head on collision?

Where was Jesus when my aunt was diagnosed with breast cancer?

Where was He in all these times? . . . where He always is . . . comforting those who suffer.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Apotheoun

[HisChildForever]

I would like to add that God does not - and will not - interfere with our free will.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='21 November 2009 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1258833478' post='2006969']
But they're still dangerous. Is that not your argument: we need to execute these guys because they're dangerous? And maybe car drivers are putting people at unnecessary risk and are therefore acting immorally.



[i]Everyone[/i] poses some risk to society. How do you know you won't just snap one day, get a gun, and shoot up a gas station? How do you know that I won't? If we wanted to make sure that the world is absolutely safe from [i]all[/i] potential criminals, we would have to wipe out the human race.
[/quote]

The difference is that the criminals in question have a proven track record of being dangerous to society. I don't.

Any other simple concepts that I need to explain to you, like "a", "an", or "the"?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 November 2009 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1258935424' post='2007565']
Where was Jesus when I broke my back and was paralyzed for eight months?

Where was Jesus when my father died of pancreatic cancer at the age of 58?

Where was Jesus when my grand aunt was killed by a drunk driver in a head on collision?

Where was Jesus when my aunt was diagnosed with breast cancer?

Where was He in all these times? . . . where He always is . . . comforting those who suffer.
[/quote]Platitudes. What comfort did she get as she suffucated? Maybe she was lucky enough to be dead or unconscious as she was then stabbed. Platitudes. Unless you earned something from performing religion checklists! What could you get?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='22 November 2009 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1258945072' post='2007685']
Platitudes. What comfort did she get as she suffucated? Maybe she was lucky enough to be dead or unconscious as she was then stabbed. Platitudes. Unless you earned something from performing religion checklists! What could you get?
[/quote]
Heaven.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='22 November 2009 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1258945072' post='2007685']
Platitudes.
[/quote]
By the way, the physical and emotional pains I have suffered during my life, and those experienced by the members of my family, are not platitudes, nor is the response of faith a platitude.

[Saint Therese]

Aren't we all guilty? We all deserve the death penalty; but for christians Jesus already paid that price.
When I see someone who comitted a horrible crime I feel really humbled. I think, there go I but for the grace of God. Why did God give me the grace to lead a (somewhat) moral life and not that person? May God be praised forever for His mercy.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 November 2009 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1258945253' post='2007688']
Heaven.
[/quote]
Really now? Was she baptized? Was she Catholic? What did her parents teach her about God? What religion did she belong to? Did failures of her parents condemen her to hell? After all, she was 9, not 4. What about the torment her parents are going through right now.

I don't want to sound completely un-symptathatic or lacking in empathy, Apo, but I've got the same sort of tragic life experiences personally and in my family as well. All I've seen the Church respond with is platitudes. No comfort, no graces, no peace, just unrelieved mental, spiritual, torture through the last shuddering breath while weak and wicked men with odd collars stand around and offer weak platitudes and warnings of oblivion. Maybe not the experience you've got, but reality none the less. Even Mother Thersa died in anguish and fear. Now there's love for you.

So really, what comfort is God going to give the parents or gave the girl? Is it just bad luck that they grew up with Methodist grandparents or parents that didn't go to church or their uncle was one of the unfortunates that was abused by someone in the clergy (of any denomination?). Or maybe they were on the wrong end of a bet between the devil and god as the chased little creatures with a magnifying glass in the sun?


Therese,
So we're all guilty? Who did I kill? Which one of my kids did I blast their brains out? Which random passerby did I torture to see what it feels like?