Under The Islamic Veil: Faces Disfigured By Acid

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='25 November 2009 - 07:52 AM' timestamp='1259160771' post='2009190']
What is the goal of calling Islam evil? Who are we trying to save? Have we been succesful using that tactic?
[/quote]
Perhaps he is simply trying to point out that Islam is a form of religious deception that has kept millions upon millions of people in the dark. Christ is the true light that enlightens men, not Mohammad or his deceptive ideology.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 November 2009 - 01:41 PM' timestamp='1259181666' post='2009380']
It is very hard for some people to reconcile the fact that Islam promotes violence. Well said.
[/quote]
I know. I had a happy go lucky view of Islam until I read the Quran and the various collections of Hadith.

[HisChildForever]

An example of Islamic violence against women (because it seems this thread topic is not enough):

[quote] BERLIN, Sep 29 (IPS) - Amnesty International has issued an urgent appeal calling on its members to write letters to the Republic of Iran asking them not to stone seven women.

Nearly all of the women have been sentenced to die by stoning for adultery. Officially Iran had placed a moratorium on the cruel and painful practise in 2002, but Amnesty claims sentencing continues. The group has received credible reports that two people were stoned to death in May.

The United Nations Human Rights Committee has ruled that treating adultery and fornication as criminal offences does not comply with international human rights standards.

"The sentence of execution by stoning for adultery breaches Iran's commitment under article 6(2) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights that death sentences will be imposed ‘only for the most serious crimes'," Amnesty wrote in its appeal.

[b][u]Under Shari'a law, a prisoner is buried up to her breast, her hands restrained. Rules also specify the size of the stones which can be thrown so that death is painful and not imminent. Both men and women can be sentenced to die by stoning. In practise, however, an overwhelming number of women receive that penalty.[/b][/u]

"It's high time this brutal practise ends. Not only are people deprived of their right to life by the state but they are tortured in the process," Nicole Choueiry, Amnesty's Middle East press officer, told IPS.

"Iran should review its legislation as a matter of urgency to bring it into line with international human rights standards," she added. [/quote]

Full article here: http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34939

Scroll down and you will find this snippet:

[quote]Kobra Najjar, 44, is at imminent risk of execution, Amnesty said. She claims to have been forced into prostitution by her husband, a heroin addict who was violent towards her.

"In 1995, after a severe beating by her husband, she told one of her regular customers that she wanted to kill her husband. The customer allegedly murdered her husband after Kobra Najjar took him to an arranged meeting place. The customer was sentenced to death, but he was pardoned by the victim's family, to whom he paid blood money," Amnesty added.

Soghra Mola'i was sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment for being an accomplice to the January 2004 murder of her husband Abdollah and to execution by stoning for adultery. She claims her lover killed her husband. Her boyfriend has been sentenced to hang for the homicide, after receiving 100 lashes for "illicit relations." [/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='24 November 2009 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1259113457' post='2008910']
Comparing Islam to ultra Orthodox Jews is like comparing Islam to the SSPX.
[/quote]


No, it's a bad comparison because one is an entire set of diverse ideologies while the other is a specific sect within a broad ideology.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='25 November 2009 - 09:01 AM' timestamp='1259157715' post='2009178']
Wowwww look at all the drama.

Okay, first off. No I wasn't trying to gloss over the crime these women have suffered. I'm just sick of our dumb society that looks at the hardships a body endures ... scars, wrinkles, stooped back, whatever ... and sees something negative. The month I was in the hospital, the lady next to me was that woman who had her face torn off by the chimp. They had to put a cop outside her door to keep people from going in there and gawking at her. I have my physical mutilations too, but I'm proud of them ...

Second off
[u][size="5"][b]I have no idea, but my guess is most of the women in these photographs remain devout Muslims. It is most likley deeply offensive to them to have their personal suffering be exploited by us/ the Times, as a tool for discrediting their faith. It is frankly nauseating to see people using women this way. The media is violating them a second time. And we are participating it.

We have to ask ourselves what our goal is. Are we interested in scoring religious points? Or are we interested in protecting women and advancing the cause of women's dignity across cultures and civilizations? What is more likely to achieve the latter goal ... using these crimes to attack Islam, or showing Muslims that these attacks are antithetical to their treasured religious beliefs? Women should not be divided by religion when it comes to standing up for their rights. How stupid that we divide ourselves when we should be united and speak with one voice![/b][font="Courier New"][/font][/size][/u]

The fact is that Islam is not inherently evil. It is not inherently violent against women. Islam is not inherently ANYTHING. It was created by man, and its meaning is strictly limited to whatever defintion man gives it. But instead of aiding the voices in Islam who want to emphasize a definition of Islam that protects women, we attack Islam itself, forcing moderates further and further into extremism.

Incidentally, this is EXACTLY what happeend to the Salafists. They were moderates, supporting an Islamic ideal which borrowed copiously from Western intellectual and political traditions. Aggressive Westernization forced them further and further from the middle, until they were denouncning women in the pages of al-Manar.
[/quote]


Perfectly said. Every word of it.

I was actually just thinking that I hadn't seen much of you around here when I was in DC. Good to see you're out of the hospital and posting again.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 November 2009 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1259181666' post='2009380']
It is very hard for some people to reconcile the fact that Islam promotes violence. Well said.
[/quote]


Really?

I just spent the weekend with several Muslim friends in DC. All of them are very devout. Never once did they attack me, who they well know is not of their faith, or any other unbelievers.

How do we explain this phenomena? How do we understand how these men and women, who know considerably more about their faith than you do and are quite devout, do not go one regular killing sprees?

Perhaps Islam, being a man made abstraction, has no causal powers of it's own. Perhaps there are any number of currents and diverse opinions in this ideology and typecasting it as a monolith is simply wrongheaded.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='24 November 2009 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1259114252' post='2008921']
Islam is Islam. "Radicals" are only doing what Islam teaches them to do. Whereas ultra Orthodox Jews have a warped understanding of Judaism[/quote]


How so?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 November 2009 - 11:47 AM' timestamp='1259167657' post='2009254']
Stop using my name. I have never introduced myself to you, and I have never been friendly with you. Therefore I have no clue why you think you have the right to address me like that, all over the thread.
[/quote]
Sorry, I wasn't aware that it was a matter of a "right to address" to use your name. You're more than welcome to call me Jake but if you'd prefer me to use your screen name then that's what I'll do HCF

[quote]
To continue, people do suffer under Islam. I was not making a generalization. Women get dragged into the street and stoned by their husbands for "disrespecting" them. Little girls get wed to grown men. Muslims have strapped bombs to themselves and blown themselves up in the middle of crowded streets. Adolescent girls and women get killed because they have "dishonored" their family in some way, such as dating a non-Muslim. I believe all of those people have suffered under Islam, no?
[/quote]

You begin by saying you're not making any generalizations before listing behaviour that is not in any way representative of the worlds 1 billion Muslims. Right, gottcha. Perhaps you should think a little more before you type.

[quote]
Those people have quoted the Qur'an, i.e. used it in their defense, to justify their barbaric behavior. They did not twist the words of the Qur'an, they have directly quoted it.
[/quote]

And the Qur'an is the only religious text that can be quoted to support violence?

[mod]inappropriate websites- MIKolbe[/mod]

etc.

[quote]
Christians are very fond of defending the Church against the crusades, pedophilia etc. by arguing that the actions of members in no way detract from the goodness of the religion. Why isn't Islam afforded the same? Double standards, Erin.
[/quote]

Edited November 26, 2009 by MIkolbe

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='25 November 2009 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1259193652' post='2009463']
Sorry, I wasn't aware that it was a matter of a "right to address" to use your name. You're more than welcome to call me Jake but if you'd prefer me to use your screen name then that's what I'll do HCF
[/quote]

Internet Protocol 101: If you are not on a first name bases with a women, you should avoid using first names.

[Jesus_lol]

Silly KOC, there are no women on the internet! men are men, women are men, and children are the FBI.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='25 November 2009 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1259195369' post='2009468']
Internet Protocol 101: If you are not on a first name bases with a women, you should avoid using first names.
[/quote]

A first name bases with a women? Alright then...

Edited November 26, 2009 by OraProMe

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='25 November 2009 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1259195894' post='2009471']
A first name bases with a women? Alright then...
[/quote]

Anyone really...

[KnightofChrist]

And yes I am aware I spelled basis incorrectly. Still it is rude to use peoples frist names, if you and not on a first name [i]bases[/i], oh darn not a again.

[OraProMe]

Yeah....

Anyway I've apologised to HCF if I offended her and now we can get back to the discussion at hand

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 November 2009 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1259181791' post='2009383']
Perhaps he is simply trying to point out that Islam is a form of religious deception that has kept millions upon millions of people in the dark. Christ is the true light that enlightens men, not Mohammad or his deceptive ideology.
[/quote]


No Muhammad is the true light. He and Vishnu assured me of this.

Someday you will step out of your darkness and into the glorious light that comes from accecpting Muhammad as your personal lord and savior and sharing a BFF charm bracelet with Shiva.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='25 November 2009 - 10:09 AM' timestamp='1259161740' post='2009200']
God in Genesis referring to Himself in the third person is a partial revelation, in due time, of the reality Holy Trinity.

Are you proposing that God himself directly inspired that part of the Koran? Or that God merely allowed Mahomet to put that in his demonic work, and may use it to accomplish good?

I have no doubt of the latter, but otherwise, I don't know what you are trying to prove by saying "God is reaching out" in this context.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Wow. Brilliant. I use the second person plural to refer to people above me when speaking Russian. I must be implying that they have multiple personalities.

Or perhaps, like Arabic, this is simply a function of the language and implies no multiplicity, but simply respect and sovereignty. This is why Muslims who speak Qur'anic Arabic, like Jews who speak Biblical Hebrew, never take such proposition as implications of polytheism or a God of multiple personalities.

It's is spelled "Muhammad" that is the most accurate transliteration from the Arabic. And unless you refer to Anglicans as "Henryians" you need to knock off that "Muhammadan" croutons. It's ignorant and rude.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='25 November 2009 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1259162344' post='2009204']


The similarities? [/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]

[color="#ff0000"][font="Arial"][color="#000000"]Heed the wisdom of the Koran, [4:34]: "The men are made responsible for the women, and Allah has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is Allah's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then desert them in bed, [b]then you may beat them.[/b] If they obey you, you are not permitted to [b]transgress[/b] against them. Allah is Most High, Supreme."[/color][/font]
[/color]

[font="Arial"][size="1"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [font="Arial"] ~Sternhauser[/font][/size][/font][b] [/b][/size][/font]
[/quote]


Let's compare that to your God's wisdom in the Torah in instructing his people how to deal with lackluster slaves.

Do you really want to go down the road of who has God hiving the more barbaric and morally depraved injunctions in their sacred text? I guarantee you that your God will come of looking no beter and the foundation of your religion no more enlightened.

[Hassan]

[QUOTE]I am absolutely positive that a Church Scholar can come in here and fully explain why the Old Testament and the Qur'an cannot be compared. For one thing, in the Old Testament, it was God who decided punishments and gave them. In the Qur'an, the people are instructed through the Prophet who says this is what Allah expects and wants. That is all I will say on that, because this thread is NOT about the Old Testmanet versus the Qur'an.[/QUOTE]


So you don't know how, but you're sure that somehow somewhere out there somebody can explain why the punishments your prophet claims God has ordained (fyi the penal injunctions of the Bible come through the medium of the prophet Moses according to your faith's [historically dubious] tradition) are somehow less barbaric than the punishments their prophet has claimed God ordained.

How is stoning a woman guilty of adultery because people insist Muhammad declared that the punishment God wills more barbaric than stoning a woman for adultery because Moses claims that your God had ordained that a fitting punishment. Let's hear the great moral distinction.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Hassan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='25 November 2009 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1259200290' post='2009487']
Let's compare that to your God's wisdom in the Torah in instructing his people how to deal with lackluster slaves.

Do you really want to go down the road of who has God hiving the more barbaric and morally depraved injunctions in their sacred text? I guarantee you that your God will come of looking no beter and the foundation of your religion no more enlightened.
[/quote]
Neither the Torah nor the Halakhic sources permit a man to beat his wife, which is the example that Sternhouser gave from the Quran, and which you then tried to switch into a focus upon the penalty to be applied for the crime of adultery, and the acceptance of servitude.

I am always amazed at the lengths to which you will go to defend Islam.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 November 2009 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1259202631' post='2009504']
Neither the Torah nor the Halakhic sources permit a man to beat his wife, which is the example that Sternhouser gave from the Quran, and which you then tried to switch into a focus upon the penalty to be applied for the crime of adultery, and the acceptance of servitude.

I am always amazed at the lengths to which you will go to defend Islam.
[/quote]


I'm not defending Islam. Permitting a man to beat his wife is appauling. I'm simply not willing to turn a bling eye to the savagery contained in your sacred text, dictated by your God.

Erin is waiting for your response in the Imam thread btw.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Hassan