Gays "will Never Go To Heaven."

[kamiller42]

[quote]
[font="Arial Black"]Gays 'will never go to heaven': cardinal[/font]

VATICAN CITY (AFP) – Homosexuals and transsexuals "will never enter the kingdom of heaven", a leading Roman Catholic cardinal said on Wednesday.

Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan said that while the Church regarded homosexuality as an "insult to God", this did not justify discrimination against gay and transsexual people.

"Transsexuals and homosexuals will never enter the kingdom of heaven and it is not me who says this, but Saint Paul," the cardinal said, in comments reported by the Ansa news agency.

"People are not born homosexual, they become homosexual, for different reasons: education issues or because they did not develop their own identity during adolescence. It may not be their fault, but acting against nature and the dignity of the human body is an insult to God," he said.

Barragan, the retired head of the Vatican's Council for Pastoral Assistance to Health Care Workers, quoted a passage from Paul's epistle to the Romans which speaks of "men committing indecent acts with other men".

"Homosexuality is therefore a sin, but this does not justify any form of discrimination. God alone has the right to judge," the cardinal said.

"We on earth cannot condemn, and as human beings we all have the same rights."

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091202/ts_afp/vaticanreligionhomosexuality_20091202171618"]Source[/url]
[/quote]

This is going to ruffle a few feathers. Kudos to the cardinal for keeping it real.

[Servus_Mariae]

That was kind of a roller coaster of a read for me. I think some terms are being used incorrectly here. I understood it as homosexual acts are what make it so that no homosexual can get to heaven...which is fair. However, the expression "no homosexuals" will get to heaven I think can be misconstrued.

I see what he is saying here though...kudos to the Cardinal for standing by Church teaching.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Servus_Mariae

[Nihil Obstat]

Ugh, these are the easiest to misinterpret. Of course we know what the cardinal meant, but a lot of people don't, and will interpret it as just another "ever gay person is damned."

[XIX]

I cringed too when he said that "Transsexuals and homosexuals will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Such a statement seems to ignore the distinction between the sexual tendency and acting out on said tendency.

He [i]is [/i]a Mexican Cardinal. I wonder how many of the semantic nuances got lost in the translation--if indeed he was speaking Spanish.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='XIX' date='02 December 2009 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1259779130' post='2013238']
I cringed too when he said that "Transsexuals and homosexuals will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Such a statement seems to ignore the distinction between the sexual tendency and acting out on said tendency.

He [i]is [/i]a Mexican Cardinal. I wonder how many of the semantic nuances got lost in the translation--if indeed he was speaking Spanish.
[/quote]
Or speaking in his second language?

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote]
"People are not born homosexual, they become homosexual, for different reasons: education issues or because they did not develop their own identity during adolescence. It may not be their fault, but acting against nature and the dignity of the human body is an insult to God," he said.[/quote]


WOW the Cardinal knows more about the biological reasons people are born gay than the scientist do.

And yes, he screwed up by not saying that those who are homosexual oriented, but remain chaste, could go to heaven.

Jim

[kamiller42]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='02 December 2009 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1259780113' post='2013254']
WOW the Cardinal knows more about the biological reasons people are born gay than the scientist do.
[/quote]
Born gay? Is there a gay gene? Has the Human Genome project found it?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 December 2009 - 11:35 AM' timestamp='1259778934' post='2013234']
Ugh, these are the easiest to misinterpret. Of course we know what the cardinal meant, but a lot of people don't, and will interpret it as just another "ever gay person is damned."
[/quote]
I agree. It is wrong to identify a person with his disordered passions.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='02 December 2009 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1259781693' post='2013264']
Born gay? Is there a gay gene? Has the Human Genome project found it?
[/quote]


Hormones effect sexual drive and desire.

There is strong evidence, that gay males, lack testosterone, which they may have been
deprived while in their mother's womb.

Studies have shown that women who have gone through a high level of stress during
their pregnancy, use the small amount of testosterone in their bodies, thereby depriving
the male fetus of his normal amount.

Nothing is conclusive, but science supports this theory more than the Cardinal's conclusion.


Jim

Edited December 2, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

Good thing the science doesn't change the immorality of the actions.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='02 December 2009 - 01:47 PM' timestamp='1259786824' post='2013292']
Hormones effect sexual drive and desire.

There is strong evidence, that gay males, lack testosterone, which they may have been
deprived while in their mother's womb.

Studies have shown that women who have gone through a high level of stress during
their pregnancy, use the small amount of testosterone in their bodies, thereby depriving
the male fetus of his normal amount.

Nothing is conclusive, but science supports this theory more than the Cardinal's conclusion.


Jim
[/quote]
I do not accept the idea that the homosexual disorder is a genetic problem. Hormones fluctuate throughout a person's life, and there is no evidence to substantiate the idea that testosterone deficiency leads to the homosexual condition.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='02 December 2009 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1259780113' post='2013254']
And yes, he screwed up by not saying that those who are homosexual oriented, but remain chaste, could go to heaven.

Jim
[/quote]
Perhaps, or perhaps like other have said, it was sloppily translated (if it was, in fact, translated).

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='02 December 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1259787981' post='2013305']
Perhaps, or perhaps like other have said, it was sloppily translated (if it was, in fact, translated).
[/quote]


Which is a reason to make sure your public statements are made clearly so as to be understood correctly.


Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 December 2009 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1259786999' post='2013294']
I do not accept the idea that the homosexual disorder is a genetic problem. Hormones fluctuate throughout a person's life, and there is no evidence to substantiate the idea that testosterone deficiency leads to the homosexual condition.
[/quote]


Well thats your opinion, but your opinion doesn't make it fact.

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='02 December 2009 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1259788337' post='2013309']
Well thats your opinion, but your opinion doesn't make it fact.

Jim
[/quote]
However it's ultimately academic, because the objective truth remains that homosexual activity is inherently wrong and disordered, and will always be so.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Debates, language and civilization itself are intrinsically violent and must be rejected if we are to survive as a species. So-called 'facts' are violent means of oppression, opinions are morally superior to facts. Please let go of this fact-based way of thinking, for the common good. Tolerance is the first step towards celebrating diversity.

P.S. I'm just sharing my opinion, I respect your world-view and would not presume to claim that mine is actually superior. I celebrate our differences.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='02 December 2009 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1259788337' post='2013309']
Well thats your opinion, but your opinion doesn't make it fact.

Jim
[/quote]
Nor does the pseudo-scientific nonsense you stated in your earlier post "make it fact."

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 December 2009 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1259788568' post='2013312']
However it's ultimately academic, because the objective truth remains that homosexual activity is inherently wrong and disordered, and will always be so.
[/quote]
I agree with you, and I am sure that Jim does too.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='02 December 2009 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1259788280' post='2013308']
Which is a reason to make sure your public statements are made clearly so as to be understood correctly.


Jim
[/quote]
The specific wording he used is not at fault if the error was of the translator.

Edited December 2, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='03 December 2009 - 07:49 AM' timestamp='1259786999' post='2013294']
I do not accept the idea that the homosexual disorder is a genetic problem. Hormones fluctuate throughout a person's life, and there is no evidence to substantiate the idea that testosterone deficiency leads to the homosexual condition.
[/quote]
Would you have any theory on why Gay men can usually be picked strait away by their intonations and mannerisms? Although I must admit they could also acquire that through the same mechanism that a majority of prostitutes can be picked by their appearance and no one is born a prostitute.