Religious Habits

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='27 December 2009 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1261933745' post='2026551']
But let me tell you of what happened to me one weekend in the convent. Me and my sisters were asked to participate in a Vocations retreat for youth at a huge parish in Illinois. Many communities participated in this event. Many sisters who did not wear habits were present at this retreat. I was VERY shocked at the ill treatment me and my sisters received from many of those un-habited sisters. Many of them I met were not friendly, they seemed angry...almost bitter...and they were not happy that me and my sisters were young, habit wearing sisters. They did not ask me or my sisters what we practiced, what we believed, what we stood for...they obviously judged us from the moment they saw us walking in all dressed in habits... I was told we were "old fashioned," "a step back for women in the Church", "trouble-makers" etc.

I'll never forget that experience. I was very surprised. I was shocked at those communities of sisters who showed me that there IS an agenda AGAINST authentic religous life in the Church. These women have taken it upon themselves to "re-write" in their own minds what religious life is. I feel obligated to say..their creations cannot be from the Almighty God... We witnessed several of this communities booths...and what we found was very surprising...many of them were advertising new age techniques, earth worship, eastern asian mysticism such as buddhism, taoism...i would even venture to say some of their ideas were outright demonic...and anyone practicing such "meditation" could easily open doors to Satan and his minions...

We were literally hissed at, growled at, snapped at...as if these women were possessed by something...
[/quote]

I think what the original poster was getting at was this -- to not judge those who do not (or do) wear a habit. To judge them by their actions, what they do, ok -- but not simply judge them as being bad sisters, or being liberal for not wearing a habit. The same goes for those who do wear habits -- you can't simply judge them as being good or bad, liberal or not because they are in a habit.

The fact that the sisters who were not in habits were judging harshly those that were is just as bad as when sisters who are in habits judge harshly those who are not. (and I've seen that too)

So -- regardless of position, whether or not one believes that a religious should or should not be in habits, charity is key.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='27 December 2009 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1261941492' post='2026576']
I think what the original poster was getting at was this -- to not judge those who do not (or do) wear a habit. To judge them by their actions, what they do, ok -- but not simply judge them as being bad sisters, or being liberal for not wearing a habit. The same goes for those who do wear habits -- you can't simply judge them as being good or bad, liberal or not because they are in a habit.

The fact that the sisters who were not in habits were judging harshly those that were is just as bad as when sisters who are in habits judge harshly those who are not. (and I've seen that too)

So -- regardless of position, whether or not one believes that a religious should or should not be in habits, charity is key.
[/quote]
i understand, but I respectable disagree...like I said, it is not as simple as that...

in some cases, we MUST "judge" in order to clarify confusion and chaos that erupt from false religious communities who neither follow the Church nor wish to serve Her in the capacity that a religious community MUST.

The other day, I was at Mass, and a non-habited sister spoke after the homily. My first inclination was..."she doesn't represent authentic religious life." The first thing she said, was that she taught some courses at a retreat center on eastern asian mystical meditation...

So, my first inclination was justified...

we throw around the word "judge" all the time...the only "judgement" that is wrong is to judge a person's soul...we cannot say, that soul is in hell..or that soul is going to hell..or that soul is not loved by God...BUT it IS our responsibility to judge what is right and what is wrong. it IS our responsibility to judge whether or not a person is actually propagating the Faith or propagating an agenda that goes against the Church. Charity is key, and the most charitable act is the act of correction. We cannot correct the error if we don't judge that it is error in the first place...

[Indwelling Trinity]

I too as a religious have had the sorrow to experience the scorn of many un-habited religious. Even back in the seventies i lived with two sisters from different communities who joined ours and they told of how they even had their habits physically torn off from them by their own sisters. It was very traumatizing for them These are extreme cases but true.

I am also witness to a great increase of alcoholism, drug addiction, and sexual promiscuity among those religious not wearing habits. Yes this happens among religious wearing habits too, but not with the same frequency. The habit in addition to being a sacramental is also a protection for the individual. I doubt highly that a religious in habit would go and sit at a bar, or shoot cocaine in a habit and as for carnal relationships with others, I think the habit would be a reminder of ones vows to God and one would be very hesistant to scandalize the little ones in public where one is clearly identified. When i have said i have met sisters unhabited in these conditions i am not speaking of one but over three hundred.

I have also experienced seeing a sister say Holy Mass as she felt it was her right as a consecrated religious. Fifty other religious from different congregations were in attendance and all participated save myself. The priest present knelt for the sister's blessing at the end of mass.

To the sisters, they saw saying mass as a right denied to them by a male hierarchy. The sacrament of holy orders is NOT a right for anyone. It is a free gift of God in the way of vocation reserved only to men. Would i wish that women could say Mass? Yes... But obedience to the church comes first. I will not step out of God's will for something that is not permitted by Peter, whom Christ placed at the head of the church.

What i have said above being done, is no longer the exception and i think this is part of the reason for the investigation by the church of possible abuses.

Not all Non habited religious do these things by any means. But there is a significant group out there who are out to show the church or male hierarchy that they will no longer tolerate what they see as oppression.

I have never witnessed a habited religious saying mass. If you read Sister Schneiders posts, she characterizes her obedience to god alone and not through the church. I am afraid many are in her boat.When i made my vows it was in the hands of my superior.

I am not sure but maybe ridding oneself of the habit without true cause may be the first step to renouncing the yoke that one has taken through holy vows.

We are all human and as human beings we go to God body mind and soul as a whole it is called unity of spirit. Unbalance any of these and you no longer have true unity, if that makes any sense. I worship God with my soul, mind and body as a religious and one impacts the other. I think this is the reason for the use of sacramentals in the church. It allows the physical body to participate in the interior disposition of the soul. So when i wear my habit, I am physically taking up the yoke of my profession to Him as sign that i am my beloved's and my beloved is unto me. It is an outward sign of an interior reality of my espousal to Jesus by my vows of Obedience, chastity and poverty desiring to cling to him alone whom i have chosen to belong too ever more perfectly each day.

I still have no judgment for unhabited religious but only wish to point out signs of danger to ones vocation it can predispose one too who chooses not to wear it out of self will rather than true need. The current argument is that we are responsible committed adults. Well so am I and many others but i still am tempted and fall into sin and if I put my hand in the fire i will get burnt!

Many of these religious now are very selective in their spirituality seeing no need to follow the teachings of the church in their totality. Maybe if they wish to continue to do so there should be another state of life other than religious life for them.

I was always taught that one is a religious first and professional second by virtue of my vows; and it is to that first that I give preeminence or I am no longer a religious but merely a social worker, teacher, doctor etc...

Sister Schneiders point that many communities were forced into the monastic mold while holding down exterior apostolate may be true in some regards but i believe that the holy spirit is has also been continuously at work throughout the ages through the intercession of the church. Religious life is not a democracy where majority rules.

If that is our basic premise as religious, them maybe one should not be a religious as in the vow of obedience we freely surrender our free will to God as expressed through our superiors. Catholicism is not a cult and we as religious have many years to discern before taking final vows. If we cannot accept what is demanded then I think it is best we should leave and find another more compatible route in serving God.

Obedience is by no means always easy, in fact at times it is downright hard but given in love for God it become one of the most beautiful things a religious can offer, for through it she becomes like her spouse who was obedient unto death in love of the Father and for the salvation of souls. Is that not the whole raison d'etre of religious life to be formed into the image and likeness of Gods only and beloved son in an act of total love and immolation? To be intimately united to God in the union of the trinitarian life?

I am by no means a rigid traditionalist, but if it works within the framework of the faith i have freely professed through baptism and holy confirmation of those baptismal vows, and finally by ratification of those promises in the form of religious vows, Then for me this is the way to go for me to go to God.

Mother Teresa once taught me a personal lesson when i was a novice. One day I did not go out with the others to the poor. I was a teenager and was already longing for the enclosed life. When i Spoke my fault to Mother as was our custom, she was quite serious about this infraction and told me did you not realize that you were being disobedient to your calling and neglectful of the poor? She went on to tell me that if my word was not good and if I did not honor it, all the rest would be a lie to God taking back what i had freely offered Him. Her words were sharper than the penance I endured after them.

To this day I have never forgotten those words of Mother and the look in her eyes.When she had to be she could be quite severe.

The giving of my word to God and doing my best to live it has become paramount in my life of consecration. Do I fall? Laughing constantly, but i trust in God's mercy, dust myself off aand begin anew; but Now if I do not truly mean what i say I will not say it; for to give it my word accepting in obedience all that my words it imply whether I like it or not determines the validity of my vow of obedience which i profesed before God.

My point being that part of my obedience is wearing of the religious habit. I gave my word to obey and rome tells us that with the exception of extroardinary cases, we are to wear it at least in public.

And so, there may be things I wish were different in the church, but in faith for me, obedience is the true fruit of love with the caveat that is does not go against faith an morals.

Laughing here... Now have I completely confused you all?

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

Edited December 27, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[brightsadness]

I hope this doesn't sound too naive but as a young looking (I'm 25) attractive women currently discerning a possible religious vocation and working in a professional position, dressing modestly and appropriately is a challenge. Being pleasant and not getting hit on is difficult too. Besides all the meaning the habit has for me, I think it's also important as a sign tht says "not available" just like a wedding ring or engagement ring is. Especially when interacting in the secular or professional arenas.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='27 December 2009 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1261943062' post='2026580']
i understand, but I respectable disagree...like I said, it is not as simple as that...

in some cases, we MUST "judge" in order to clarify confusion and chaos that erupt from false religious communities who neither follow the Church nor wish to serve Her in the capacity that a religious community MUST.

The other day, I was at Mass, and a non-habited sister spoke after the homily. My first inclination was..."she doesn't represent authentic religious life." The first thing she said, was that she taught some courses at a retreat center on eastern asian mystical meditation...

So, my first inclination was justified...

we throw around the word "judge" all the time...the only "judgement" that is wrong is to judge a person's soul...we cannot say, that soul is in hell..or that soul is going to hell..or that soul is not loved by God...BUT it IS our responsibility to judge what is right and what is wrong. it IS our responsibility to judge whether or not a person is actually propagating the Faith or propagating an agenda that goes against the Church. Charity is key, and the most charitable act is the act of correction. We cannot correct the error if we don't judge that it is error in the first place...
[/quote]

The fact that you automatically judged a religious (a non-habited sister) as not representing authentic religious life is what I am pointing to.

I understand that there are communities that are way out of line. But to judge before knowing the person is wrong. I say this in defense of those non-habited sisters who are excellent examples of religious.

I do not throw around the word "judge" lightly. I will simply say it this way -- do not judge a book by its cover. If subsequent actions give you sufficient information for judging a religious one way or another then by all means do so.

Finally -- you said "we cannot correct the error if we don't judge that it is error in the first place." I will leave the judgement of error to the Church -- especially with respect to those communities that do not use a habit. If the Church sees it to be in error then it will choose to correct.

[dominicansoul]

I again respectively disagree with you. I believe it is necessary to be somewhat cautious of those religious who do not follow the Church's guidelines to such a simple command as wearing attire that is necessary for their state in life. If a community cannot be obedient in such a "small" matter, what makes us think they can be obedient to greater matters? To tell everybody "you shouldn't judge a sister if she's not wearing a habit" is like tellling me, "don't pay any attention to what is wrong with this community." Like I stated above, it is necessary that we must recognize the error, and to announce it so that no one falls for the false doctrines propagated by such communities. The habit is a "visible sign of an invisible bethrothal" as Mother Marie William McGregor, O.P. so eloquently put it...to see "sisters" not wearing their wedding gowns warrants justifiable suspicions...

The Vatican is doing something about this...which is why those communities whose sisters are not wearing habits are all up in arms and foaming at the mouth about the inquiry...I for one say, "it's about time!!!"

Edited December 27, 2009 by dominicansoul

[Nunsense]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='28 December 2009 - 04:09 AM' timestamp='1261933745' post='2026551']
I believe the Church has stated time and again, that religious should wear habits...so when I see "sisters" not wearing habits, it is easily identifiable as disobedience...

in some cases, where a religous community is still in the beginnings of their foundation, a habit is not usually confirmed yet...or as in the case with Mother Seton's order...

I would like to share an experience I had while I was in the convent. I know that many of my Sisters did not hold prejudice against those sisters who did not wear habits. I met one such sister from Ireland, and she moved me profoundly by her words of wisdom. It seemed to me that the Holy Spirit had touched her heart in such a way as she knew the beauty of giving one's life to Jesus totally...

In her case, she did not wear the habit, not out of disobedience...but out of obedience. The area of Ireland she works in is prejudiced towards Catholics and religious can become targets. Out of obedience to her superiors, she was asked not to wear her habit, which could become dangerous for her.

But let me tell you of what happened to me one weekend in the convent. Me and my sisters were asked to participate in a Vocations retreat for youth at a huge parish in Illinois. Many communities participated in this event. Many sisters who did not wear habits were present at this retreat. I was VERY shocked at the ill treatment me and my sisters received from many of those un-habited sisters. Many of them I met were not friendly, they seemed angry...almost bitter...and they were not happy that me and my sisters were young, habit wearing sisters. They did not ask me or my sisters what we practiced, what we believed, what we stood for...they obviously judged us from the moment they saw us walking in all dressed in habits... I was told we were "old fashioned," "a step back for women in the Church", "trouble-makers" etc.

I'll never forget that experience. I was very surprised. I was shocked at those communities of sisters who showed me that there IS an agenda AGAINST authentic religous life in the Church. These women have taken it upon themselves to "re-write" in their own minds what religious life is. I feel obligated to say..their creations cannot be from the Almighty God... We witnessed several of this communities booths...and what we found was very surprising...many of them were advertising new age techniques, earth worship, eastern asian mysticism such as buddhism, taoism...i would even venture to say some of their ideas were outright demonic...and anyone practicing such "meditation" could easily open doors to Satan and his minions...

We were literally hissed at, growled at, snapped at...as if these women were possessed by something...

But truth always prevails. The youth groups that were gathered for this huge event were very open towards those communities whose religious wore habits. They were a little more shy towards those who didn't. At one question and answer session, one young lady asked one of my Sisters, "Why do you wear one of those, while that Sister over there does not?" And the non-habited sister went on to say that Vatican II gave them the right not to have to wear such an oppressive garment. My sister quickly and charitably corrected her and said, Vatican II never stated such a thing, in fact the Church has always said religous must wear a garment identifying one's state in religious life. The young lady who asked the question went on to say that she liked the habit more, and to that, the huge crowd of youth confirmed that with claps and whistles....

it isn't just a black and white issue. There is a hidden agenda of women who do a grave disservice against our Church because they have decided that their feminist ideals must overshadow the reasons for authentic religious life in the Church. Authentic religious life is all about service to God and to the Church. Authentic religious are called to SERVE and to live in SERVICE. Religious women are called to become BRIDES of CHRIST. Many of these terms are offensive to these women who do not wear habits. They don't consider themselves "Brides of Christ." And they DO NOT wish to wear their WEDDING GARMENT which is what the habit IS! If that is oppressive to some women, they should never have become sisters in the first place.
[/quote]

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[Nunsense]

I quote at length from a statement made this year by the Cardinal Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of Religious. This congregation is under the direct supervision of the Holy Father and as I know from working at the Vatican, is the Pope’s authentic spokesman for religious throughout the world:

[i]In her wisdom the Church confides to the chapters the task of studying (after consulting with the members of their institutes) what changes are necessary in their constitutions.
It must be noted, however, that the motu proprio Ecclesiae Sanctae does not authorize experiments that would obscure the meaning of religious life and its function in the Church (17) or that would create confusion or disorder in the said institutes or give scandal.
Caution is therefore necessary in introducing changes and it is worthwhile to consult competent authority in order to obtain pertinent orientations. Institutes that have acted thus have assured themselves of an invaluable assistance that enabled them to take definite constructive and beneficial decisions.
The reference just mentioned demonstrates and explains why changes affecting the form, nature, or character of the institute are forbidden.
According to the norms of the motu proprio Ecclesiae Sanctae the constitutions cannot be altered so that religious consecration appears subordinate to apostolic activity. Such a shifting of values could have extremely grave consequences because religious consecration should be, on the contrary, the propelling force of every activity and hence of every apostolate.
To cite a particular instance, the chapter is not empowered to decide, for example, as an experiment, on the suppression of community life in the institute, or the suppression of the religious habit, and the use of secular clothes.
With reference to the religious habit it seems necessary to point out that it must conform to the norms of the decree Perfectae Caritatis. It may be changed (but not suppressed) and may not be left to the free choice of various people or the caprice of certain individuals.
The laity who venerate and respect those consecrated to God, expect that modesty and reserve, that edifying note of austerity and that external proof of poverty that enhance the service of Religious and render more attractive their vocation to virtue and goodness. [13][/i]
No religious who is serious about her loyalty to the Holy See can afford to ignore these directives. They are not a free option but are meant to be embraced with Christian generosity.

...
In my opinion, whatever changes are made, the new habit should be distinctive of the institute, uniform for all members of the community, modest in being not unnecessarily revealing, simple and therefore not elaborate in cut or tailoring, inexpensive as an apt sign of religious poverty, convenient for wear all day long and in any ordinary occupation, symbolic in retaining such features as the veil to signify consecration to God.

...
[url="http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Religious_Life/Religious_Life_047.htm"]From Father John A. Hardon, S.J. Archives[/url]
"Religious Life "

Father Hardon also has a questionnaire posted on this site about the religious habit, and the answers are very interesting, so I will post them separately.

[organwerke]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='27 December 2009 - 11:21 PM' timestamp='1261948895' post='2026603']
The fact that you automatically judged a religious (a non-habited sister) as not representing authentic religious life is what I am pointing to.

I understand that there are communities that are way out of line. But to judge before knowing the person is wrong. I say this in defense of those non-habited sisters who are excellent examples of religious.

[/quote]

In fact it is right not to judge the person.
But I think you are saying "it is unfair to have a negative judgement on a nun only based on her external clothes".
Now, I think it is quite obvious that we can find excellent un-habited sisters as well as unfaithful habited sisters.
But consider the case that we aren't speaking about a particular person but about judging, [i]in general[/i], nuns or sisters only beacuse they wear/don't wear a habit.
Now, let me say that, in general, thinking of the case of very similar persons (regarding their soul dispositions, santity etc), I am inclined to have a better opinion of nuns with habit than nuns without it.
Is it fair to judge a person ONLY for her habit?
Of course not, but if I I'm speaking ONLY about the habit, I have a better opinion of those who wear the habit than those who don't wear.
Why? Because the habit is a very important symbol and and an essential part of religious life, and if there ISN'T a GOOD reason not to wear it this make me easily think that this is something wrong in it.