Ziggamafu Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 [quote name='Raphael' date='30 December 2009 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1262208843' post='2027585'] I can confirm that it is not at odds with Rome. In fact, Spe Salvi applies the same thinking to purgatory in article 47. [/quote] One aspect that I remain unclear on is how this view is reconciled with the re-creation and resurrection. IOW, if the damned and the blessed both have the same end in the Lake of Fire that is God's Love, is there further theology in this direction that proposes "where they go" or how they are "segregated" when their bodies are resurrected in the context of the new Heaven and the new Earth?
Thy Geekdom Come Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='30 December 2009 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1262227110' post='2027728'] One aspect that I remain unclear on is how this view is reconciled with the re-creation and resurrection. IOW, if the damned and the blessed both have the same end in the Lake of Fire that is God's Love, is there further theology in this direction that proposes "where they go" or how they are "segregated" when their bodies are resurrected in the context of the new Heaven and the new Earth? [/quote] I suspect that they would physically go where they normally would in any other valid theological view of the afterlife. God's presence will be throughout, so those in a physical hell will still be in His fiery presence, just like those in a physical paradise.
jeffpugh Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 December 2009 - 11:14 AM' timestamp='1262189651' post='2027516'] The fire of God's being, which is the joy of the saints, is also the very thing that causes the pain of the damned. Heaven and hell are not places, but are instead different ways of experiencing God's burning presence, for God is light to the saints and fire to the damned. As I said in a another post: "Hell is the communion with God, who is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29), experienced by the damned. So, from an Eastern Christian perspective, the damned - like the saints - will grow closer and closer to God throughout eternity. In other words, the saints and the reprobate have the same end (i.e., God), but where they differ is in how they experience that ever-moving communion with divinity (θείῳ, which is sometimes translated as 'brimstone,' i.e., the divine incense), which is the very joy of the saints and the very pain of the damned." [/quote] You know, without any reading of Eastern Theology, I came to this conclusion of hell myself (though influenced by the idea that Peter Kreeft left on his website). When I mentioned it--to my seminarian friends even--I nearly got called a heretic! Lawl. They insisted it was written somewhere that Heaven and hell are two distinct places. That those in heaven are not in the same place as those in hell.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='30 December 2009 - 10:57 PM' timestamp='1262231835' post='2027756'] You know, without any reading of Eastern Theology, I came to this conclusion of hell myself (though influenced by the idea that Peter Kreeft left on his website). When I mentioned it--to my seminarian friends even--I nearly got called a heretic! Lawl. They insisted it was written somewhere that Heaven and hell are two distinct places. That those in heaven are not in the same place as those in hell. [/quote] I've never heard such a thing, but I'd love to see where they got the idea.
Gregorius Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 I used to think of Hell as a literal death of the soul because God is absent, and as God is absent, nothing can exist.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 [quote name='Gregorius' date='30 December 2009 - 11:50 PM' timestamp='1262235013' post='2027768'] I used to think of Hell as a literal death of the soul because God is absent, and as God is absent, nothing can exist. [/quote] If God is absent, there is no hell.
Gregorius Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Exactly, which is one of the reasons why I don't think of Hell like that anymore.
Ziggamafu Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='30 December 2009 - 10:57 PM' timestamp='1262231835' post='2027756'] You know, without any reading of Eastern Theology, I came to this conclusion of hell myself (though influenced by the idea that Peter Kreeft left on his website). When I mentioned it--to my seminarian friends even--I nearly got called a heretic! Lawl. They insisted it was written somewhere that Heaven and hell are two distinct places. That those in heaven are not in the same place as those in hell. [/quote] Weird that you got a -1 on that post. Anyway, I suppose it could be said that Heaven and Hell will eventually be two distinct "places" if the terms are applied to post-resurrection states. Heaven and Hell are not "places", properly speaking, prior to the resurrection since spirits do not occupy space. Maybe your friends rashly assumed you were denying the resurrection or recreation? Raph, what do you think?
OraProMe Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 [quote name='Gregorius' date='30 December 2009 - 11:50 PM' timestamp='1262235013' post='2027768'] I used to think of Hell as a literal death of the soul because God is absent, and as God is absent, nothing can exist. [/quote] Literal death of the soul would actually be pretty nice. Unmitigated freedom with 0 consequences.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='31 December 2009 - 08:38 AM' timestamp='1262266696' post='2027807'] Weird that you got a -1 on that post. Anyway, I suppose it could be said that Heaven and Hell will eventually be two distinct "places" if the terms are applied to post-resurrection states. Heaven and Hell are not "places", properly speaking, prior to the resurrection since spirits do not occupy space. Maybe your friends rashly assumed you were denying the resurrection or recreation? Raph, what do you think? [/quote] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101548&view=findpost&p=2027750"]I already gave my views.[/url] [quote name='OraProMe' date='31 December 2009 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1262273739' post='2027813'] Literal death of the soul would actually be pretty nice. Unmitigated freedom with 0 consequences. [/quote] Death of the soul is a contradiction in terms, since death is the separation of the soul from the body. The soul has no body. Some people suggest the annihilation of the soul, but that concept wouldn't bring freedom. Even if there were no eternal consequences, there would still be consequences in this life. It goes against our nature to do evil and every sin damages our souls.
Resurrexi Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' date='31 December 2009 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1262273739' post='2027813'] Literal death of the soul would actually be pretty nice. Unmitigated freedom with 0 consequences. [/quote] More like amoral behavior. Edited December 31, 2009 by Resurrexi
jeffpugh Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='31 December 2009 - 08:38 AM' timestamp='1262266696' post='2027807'] Weird that you got a -1 on that post. Anyway, I suppose it could be said that Heaven and Hell will eventually be two distinct "places" if the terms are applied to post-resurrection states. Heaven and Hell are not "places", properly speaking, prior to the resurrection since spirits do not occupy space. Maybe your friends rashly assumed you were denying the resurrection or recreation? Raph, what do you think? [/quote] Maybe my offence was my saying that I "came to the idea myself", which I meant to articulate that I was "enlightened by the HS through meditation on this subject". Nothing I know is from solely my own work, but the grace of God (so feel free to fix my -1? )
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='31 December 2009 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1262273739' post='2027813'] Unmitigated freedom with 0 consequences. [/quote] That's sort of possible through insanity. The pinnacle of self-delusion would be the achievement of a catatonic lifestyle involving an absolutely realistic lucid dream state. You could live in a mental institution some place while experiencing whatever life you desire in your own mind. The realization of solipsism and unmitigated freedom with zero "real" consequences. Reality has been pwned! Perhaps psychedelic drugs can help to achieve this. The death of God, the death of the other, the deification of the ego. Make it so.
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Because as we know: [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/reality.jpg[/IMG]
jeffpugh Posted January 1, 2010 Posted January 1, 2010 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='31 December 2009 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1262289084' post='2027886'] Because as we know: [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/reality.jpg[/IMG] [/quote] +1 Win.
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