What Is Metaphorical And What Is Literal?

[Guest DanielNicholas]

My main point is Noahs ark and the global flood.

If you read the Noahs ark story, it goes into great detail on almost all the details.
Exactly how big the ark was (450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high).
What kind of animals Noah ate.
What mountain the boat came to rest on (Mount Ararat in Turkey).
How long Noah had to load the animals onto the boat.

All these little insignificant details that the author seems to have gone into so much effort, to prove that such an occurance happened?

And don't get into an arguement if it happened or not. You're supossed to interpret this 'metaphorically'.
[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='DanielNicholas' date='12 January 2010 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1263276441' post='2035256']

And don't get into an arguement if it happened or not. You're supossed to interpret this 'metaphorically'.
[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html[/url]
[/quote]

Why? I find it interesting you link to that site. Genesis is not all history in the way you understand the term.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='DanielNicholas' date='12 January 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1263276441' post='2035256']
My main point is Noahs ark and the global flood.

If you read the Noahs ark story, it goes into great detail on almost all the details.
Exactly how big the ark was (450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high).
What kind of animals Noah ate.
What mountain the boat came to rest on (Mount Ararat in Turkey).
How long Noah had to load the animals onto the boat.

All these little insignificant details that the author seems to have gone into so much effort, to prove that such an occurance happened?

And don't get into an arguement if it happened or not. You're supossed to interpret this 'metaphorically'.
[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html[/url]
[/quote]


I guess I wonder why a person tries so hard to prove that something written in the Bible isn't literally correct. I mean, are you really trying to say that since you can't believe in the Noah's Ark story, you aren't going to believe anything else? Why not just come out and say that then?

Personally, I believe that ANYTHING is possible because God is who God is. If someone proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Noah's Ark was impossible, and even took me back in time in their time machine and showed me that it never happened that way, I would say, "Fine, but God could still do it if He wanted to. God is God." That is what I call faith. It doesn't matter to me whether Noah ever existed or not, but the story tells me something about God's anguish over the sins of mankind, and His remorse and being forced to cleanse His creation the way He did. Personally, what I read into the story is that God is ever loving and patient with us, and wants so much for us to love Him back. End of story for me. I am so grateful for faith, that's all I can say.

[Mark of the Cross]

I wonder whether atheists are trying to convince us or themselves.

[philbo]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='12 January 2010 - 10:58 AM' timestamp='1263290339' post='2035295']
I wonder whether atheists are trying to convince us or themselves.
[/quote]
The problem atheists have is that we never know what Christians actually believe, sometimes not even after a particular believer has tried explaining his/her view on which bits of the Bible are historical and which metaphorical. A lot of the time, they're not even sure themselves... at least, not sure enough to be coherent in their explanations.

There are plenty on-line who will argue till they're blue in the face that the flood did happen, explains the demise of the dinosaurs (and some very, er, "interesting" things about geology). As a (hopefully) amusing aside, I even [url="http://www.amiright.com/parody/70s/donmclean130.shtml"]wrote a song[/url] about one such debate.

That all the physical & living evidence shows the literal story of a global flood to be impossible doesn't stop people believing - I've even had it argued that the existence of flood myths & stories from around the world somehow proves the biblical story that only Noah and his family were left alive.. which is just plain stupid whatever you happen to believe.

So next time you think it's vaguely amusing that some atheist isn't sure what in the Bible is supposed to be literally true and what's a metaphor, please bear in mind it's even more true of Christians themselves.

[Winchester]

[quote name='DanielNicholas' date='12 January 2010 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1263276441' post='2035256']
All these little insignificant details that the author seems to have gone into so much effort, to prove that such an occurance happened?
[/quote]
By what standard do you deem them insignificant?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 08:41 AM' timestamp='1263303678' post='2035318']
The problem atheists have is that we never know what Christians actually believe, sometimes not even after a particular believer has tried explaining his/her view on which bits of the Bible are historical and which metaphorical. A lot of the time, they're not even sure themselves... at least, not sure enough to be coherent in their explanations.

There are plenty on-line who will argue till they're blue in the face that the flood did happen, explains the demise of the dinosaurs (and some very, er, "interesting" things about geology). As a (hopefully) amusing aside, I even [url="http://www.amiright.com/parody/70s/donmclean130.shtml"]wrote a song[/url] about one such debate.

That all the physical & living evidence shows the literal story of a global flood to be impossible doesn't stop people believing - I've even had it argued that the existence of flood myths & stories from around the world somehow proves the biblical story that only Noah and his family were left alive.. which is just plain stupid whatever you happen to believe.

So next time you think it's vaguely amusing that some atheist isn't sure what in the Bible is supposed to be literally true and what's a metaphor, please bear in mind it's even more true of Christians themselves.
[/quote]

I see it the other way round. Every atheist I've debated with fires a bunch of misconceptions at me that the only I answer i can give is "I don't believe that either". I just end up saying "if it's not in the catechism then we don't believe it".

[cmotherofpirl]

Yep. Its rarely what we actually believe that atheists argue about, its always what [i]they think[/i] we believe

[philbo]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='12 January 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1263305724' post='2035324']
I see it the other way round. Every atheist I've debated with fires a bunch of misconceptions at me that the only I answer i can give is "I don't believe that either". I just end up saying "if it's not in the catechism then we don't believe it".
[/quote]
*every* atheist?

Misconceptions are common, and from both sides of the divide - I'veheard some utterly ridiculous definitions of atheism from theists(yeah, like I really worship Darwin); but I do find that there is sucha bewildering array of what theists believe that I'm not surprised thatpeople get things wrong.

It's why I do my very best not to make assertions about what other people believe.. but sometimes one has to have something on which to hang a discussion.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1263312446' post='2035376']
*every* atheist?[/quote]
Every atheist he's debated. You must have missed the qualifier.

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1263314889' post='2035394']
Every atheist he's debated. You must have missed the qualifier.
[/quote]
I was kind of hoping he'd end up debating me about something - after all, you seem the sort who would jump in if someone said "all Christians I've ever spoken to were certifiable loonies" - same principle.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[size="5"][font="Impact"][b][u][color="#00FF00"][b][font="Arial"]READ G.K. CHESTERTON[/font][/b][/color][/u][/b][/font][/size]

Edited January 12, 2010 by sacredheartandbloodofjesus

[havok579257]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 08:41 AM' timestamp='1263303678' post='2035318']
The problem atheists have is that we never know what Christians actually believe, sometimes not even after a particular believer has tried explaining his/her view on which bits of the Bible are historical and which metaphorical. A lot of the time, they're not even sure themselves... at least, not sure enough to be coherent in their explanations.

There are plenty on-line who will argue till they're blue in the face that the flood did happen, explains the demise of the dinosaurs (and some very, er, "interesting" things about geology). As a (hopefully) amusing aside, I even [url="http://www.amiright.com/parody/70s/donmclean130.shtml"]wrote a song[/url] about one such debate.

That all the physical & living evidence shows the literal story of a global flood to be impossible doesn't stop people believing - I've even had it argued that the existence of flood myths & stories from around the world somehow proves the biblical story that only Noah and his family were left alive.. which is just plain stupid whatever you happen to believe.

So next time you think it's vaguely amusing that some atheist isn't sure what in the Bible is supposed to be literally true and what's a metaphor, please bear in mind it's even more true of Christians themselves.
[/quote]


And yet how many athiests believe that nothing combined with nothing and created something. That is something science shows as impossible. So pot.. kettle.. black.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1263316296' post='2035409']
I was kind of hoping he'd end up debating me about something - after all, you seem the sort who would jump in if someone said "all Christians I've ever spoken to were certifiable loonies" - same principle.
[/quote]
I would call it anecdotal evidence, though.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='philbo' date='13 January 2010 - 04:11 AM' timestamp='1263316296' post='2035409']
Christians I've ever spoken to were certifiable loonies" - same principle.
[/quote]

Leave me out of this!

[philbo]

[quote name='havok579257' date='12 January 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1263328041' post='2035545']
And yet how many athiests believe that nothing combined with nothing and created something. That is something science shows as impossible. So pot.. kettle.. black.
[/quote]
I've never heard an atheist say "nothing combined with nothing and created something" - that's exactly the sort of misrepresentation I frequently hear from Christians

[quote name='havok579257' date='12 January 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1263328041' post='2035545']
So pot.. kettle.. black.
[/quote]
I assume you're referring to your first two sentences, rather than my post.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='13 January 2010 - 05:56 AM' timestamp='1263380176' post='2036072']
I've never heard an atheist say "nothing combined with nothing and created something" - that's exactly the sort of misrepresentation I frequently hear from Christians
[/quote]
Anecdotal evidence.

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='13 January 2010 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1263389837' post='2036091']
Anecdotal evidence.
[/quote]
True, but it happens. That it has happened again here after I've only been around for a couple of days, does suggest that it's a fairly prevalent misconception, though.

[Nihil Obstat]

So you'd present that before the Big Bang there was more than nothing?

[philbo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='13 January 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1263394017' post='2036120']
So you'd present that before the Big Bang there was more than nothing?
[/quote]
I have no idea what was before the Big Bang - "nothing combined with nothing to create something" is not one of only two choices, though.

However, I'm comfortable with the idea of saying "I don't know" without inventing something infinitely more impossible to try and explain the bits I don't know.