Women Step Up To Altar:as Number Of Priests Dwindl

[Bruce S]

[quote]It came from the early Christians. I know it's written by a Church Father and I read it in a book called The Lambs Supper by Scott Hahn.
[/quote]

yes, WE do train theologians to teach, don't WE? Cheap shot, but hey, this is how things are going today...

Some theologians go that way, others this way, I have shown that recently here too..yours leave and ours leave, but they ALL remain Christians.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 10:05 AM']Does ANYONE today want to address the dear Cardinal, one of the four top candidates for the next pope or not?

I'm the scapgoat now for YOUR internal divisions, and the Cardinal is trying to get YOU TO SEE something, but that would require taking off the denominational pride glasses, something that isn't going to happen I guess.

Jason, how old are you? You sound VERY young, with very little real world life experience?[/quote]
"Unless you become like children" Age don't matter. Some Saints were very young.
Oh lookie what I found in Matthew 11:25 "I give you praise to you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike."
I know what i know because He is good.

Lets just say I'm old enough to know better

God Bless
Jason

Plus don't make Rome a political office it's not, The Pope is the Vicar of Christ a servant of God's people. Not the next president.

peace

[yiannii]

please explain u not make much sense to meh

[PedroX]

Bruce,

You are absolutely right, regarding Car. Arinze's quote, but wrong in the application. Christianit is more than rules, or ethics, or whatever. It is primarily about conforming ourselves to the image of Christ. However, God (through the Holy Spirit) has revealed rules and ethic and etc. which are the most useful in accomplishing that goal.

As to your original story. The vocations crisis is largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Where dissenters hold power, they begin to screen out or discourage orthodox men from folowing their true vocations. Next thing you know, we have an apparent shortage of priests. Then we can argue that what's needed is to change the rules to what we wanted them to be all along. It must be so frustrating for these people to have created the "perfect storm" and still the rules haven't changed.

God bless you Bruce.

peace...

[Bruce S]

[quote]Plus don't make Rome a political office it's not,[/quote]

Err...

Jason, dear boy, it is a NATION, a COUNTRY, complete with Flag, Dipolmatic Status, army, post office, and all the trappings of GOVERMENT.

Or do you not know that Jason?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 10:16 AM']
yes, WE do train theologians to teach, don't WE? Cheap shot, but hey, this is how things are going today...

Some theologians go that way, others this way, I have shown that recently here too..yours leave and ours leave, but they ALL remain Christians.[/quote]
[color=red]2 Timothy 2: 14-19

"Remind people of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about words. This serves no useful purpose since it harms those who listen.

Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation.

Avoid profane, idle talk, for such people will become more and more godless,

and their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

who have deviated from the truth by saying that (the) resurrection has already taken place and are upsetting the faith of some. (Or each other)

Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands, bearing this inscription, "The Lord knows those who are his"; and, "Let everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord avoid evil."[/color]

Funny the things that i find? hmm!


[quote]Err...

Jason, dear boy, it is a NATION, a COUNTRY, complete with Flag, Dipolmatic Status, army, post office, and all the trappings of GOVERMENT.

Or do you not know that Jason?[/quote]

Voting for the Pope is not like voting for the president of the United States. Number one prayer is involved and bishops make the decision it's not a public vote! Err...

God Bless man
Jason

[Bruce S]

[quote]As to your original story. The vocations crisis is largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Where dissenters hold power, they begin to screen out or discourage orthodox men from folowing their true vocations.[/quote]

[img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0895261448.01._PE30_PIdp-schmoo2,TopRight,7,-26_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]

If anyone really even cares to be objective, this is a must read. Zealots, don't bother, it won't compute. And this is the truth today, the root of the problems with vocations.

[quote]Editorial Reviews

From Library Journal
Written shortly before the current scandal broke upon the Roman Catholic Church, Rose's book seems almost prophetic as he documents the systematic rejection of pious, orthodox seminary applicants in many dioceses and the encouragement of questionable attitudes and agendas. Rose (Ugly As Sin), who was editor of St. Catherine Review for seven years, is the author of numerous articles, essays, and books that question the wisdom of contemporary liberal Catholicism. Here, he discusses the causes of the chronic priest shortage, including the misuse of psychological screening and what appears to be blatant discrimination against the kind of young men who were once considered ideal candidates for the vocation. He gives a disturbing glimpse behind the scenes that may go far in explaining the church's present difficulties. Based primarily on interviews, the book is carefully footnoted and contains a bibliography of sources cited and consulted. Highly recommended for anyone interested in this prominent topic, and for public and academic libraries. C. Robert Nixon, MLS, Lafayette, IN
[/quote]

[Livin_the_MASS]

[img]http://shop.catholic.com/online-store/scstore/B0202.JPG[/img]

Calling all zealots, Calling all zealots!!!

Conversion Stories
Surprised by Truth
Patrick Madrid

Originally published in 1994, Surprised By Truth has now sold over 250,000 copies to date.

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And many more...
These eleven stories of conversion merge into a sustained argument for the truth of the Catholic Faith. The converts anxieties, doubts, reasons, and affirmations are reported candidly - nothing is held back.

A great gift for those considering the Catholic Church. "

God Bless
Jason

[willguy]

Bruce,

Be careful using the word zealot. Its quite common for people to attack others for being that which they dislike in themselves.

[Norseman82]

[quote]Frankly, the way you really ARE going, we are going to start demanding royalites for all the Protestant style things and practices that you one, by one, are implementing[/quote]



[quote]Fine, and we'll demand royalties every time you use the Bible[/quote]




[img]http://www.cycleforums.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif[/img]

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 09:28 AM'] [img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0895261448.01._PE30_PIdp-schmoo2,TopRight,7,-26_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]

If anyone really even cares to be objective, this is a must read. Zealots, don't bother, it won't compute. And this is the truth today, the root of the problems with vocations.

[/quote]
Indeed. Our seminaries have gone down the toilet. The Church is in crisis.

[url="http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20040119.html"]http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20040119.html[/url]

[Bruce S]

Man, that was a very interesting read, thank you.

Looks like the Vatican curia took calculus however.

Hey, this saddens me, honestly, seminaries, of all denominations should be turning men and where allowed, women, away, not wondering where the next crop of future leaders will come from.

I will pray, that the Holy Spirit will lead where HE wants things lead, and that conditions for those that are believers will be conducive to vocations.

God bless and God provide.

Edited April 9, 2004 by Bruce S

[Dave]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 01:14 PM'] I will pray, that the Holy Spirit will lead where HE wants things lead, and that conditions for those that are believers will be conducive to vocations.

God bless and God provide. [/quote]
And what makes you so sure you know better where the Holy Spirit should lead?

[Bruce S]

[quote]And what makes you so sure you know better where the Holy Spirit should lead? [/quote]

Reread my post.

I don't speak for the HS, nor should any of us.

[Dave]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 9 2004, 01:34 PM']
Reread my post.

I don't speak for the HS, nor should any of us. [/quote]
The Holy Spirit guides the Church. So it's only right that the Church should do what the Holy Spirit wants, which of course it does.

[mulls]

dave he's not arguing with you bro.

[HS_Dad]

[quote name='PassionistF' date='Apr 9 2004, 08:19 AM'] The Catholic Church is responding to a crisis (we've seen them before Bruce) in a manner that doesn't seem to fit the mold of the Protestant view: Leave the Church, invent another .... oops, don't like the new Pastor, move on ... invent another ..... Don't like the music, move on .... Invent another.
[/quote]
Just an FYI the "leave the Church, invent another" element of Protestantism pretty much died with the culture wars arising out of the 1960's. Now Protestants increasingly are coalescing in non-denominational structures into two "uber" groupings: the "Mainline" or "Oldline" liberal members (groupings like the WCC in particular) who in practice reject Scripture in favor of modernism and Postmodernism and Evangelicals who are are coalescing around a non-doctrinally distinct orthodox Protestantism through groups like NAE, and various parachurch functionally oriented organizations which go beyond denominational labels. That's my take. Evangelicals are orthodox Catholics best friends on this earthly world.
An eventual rapprochement would be great as each brings their gifts and unite as one....(one can dream).

Ut unum sint!!!

[Bruce S]

[quote]An eventual rapprochement would be great as each brings their gifts and unite as one....(one can dream).
[/quote]

OK, unite with US and we are cool with it. Don't expect Evangelical's to get all excited about YOUR clergy running the show.

How about a real DEMOCRACTIC merger, each layperson gets ONE VOTE, and rotating office, four years, your side rules, then our side gets four years?

That is REAL ecumenism, not one side saying... "Come home"

[amarkich]

Bruce, you make the mistake (when quoting Catholics) of taking an individual's heresy and presenting at some kind of division within the Church (as if the Church could ever have contradictory teaching). I think it is absolutely hilarious that you bring up the modern innovations that have been introduced into the Liturgy because it is so clear to any candid inquirer that the Novus Ordo changes parallel those of the protestant revolution. The only problem with your statement concerning the innovations is that it is within the Church's authority to change the Liturgy even to the extent and the evils used in the New Mass (hand Communion, armies of women, etc). It is even possible for the Church to make these things to the point of not being sinful but not beyond that (they may very well be sinful, and certainly are, for anyone who has a well developed conscience and understands the issue). The fact that the Liturgy has been destroyed by Bugnini and others (most of which were Masons--apparently it is fine to be a Mason today in New Mass circles but not a Traditionalist) does not mean that the Church has erred. It does mean, however, that there is a great scandal among all men, especially considering the fact that it appears as if the protestants "got it right" with their blasphemous services that were instituted after the revolution. It is interesting (I do not know what the New Mass has assigned for today's prayer--it may follow the protestant mentality as you have pointed out about the Mass itself--but one of the Traditional Latin Rite prayers is as follows): "Oremus et pro haereticis et schismaticis: ut Deus et Dominus noster eruat eos ab erroribus universis; et ad sanctam matrem Ecclesiam Catholicam atque Apostolicam revocare dignetur." which translates as: "Let us pray also for heretics and schismatics: that our Lord God would be pleased to rescue them from all their errors; and recall them to our holy mother the Catholic and Apostolic Church." This should be the prayer of all those who are in the Truth--that the grace of God will be accepted by all who are outside the Church that they may return to God through the Church which He founded, outside of which there is no salvation. God bless.

[CreepyCrawler]

Back to the original point of this post, I think.
I have a question: what's the big deal if more women get involved in ministry as long as they're not priests? The most special thing about being a priest is doing Mass and being a part of the mystery of the Transubstantiation (I'm not sure how to word it w/o making sound like magic). And the priestly vocation is closed to women, so I don't think that people should feel like the priesthood is being threatened just because a woman is in charge of accounting or music or even parish activities. The priesthood is more than just management of churches, right? That's my opinion.