Haitian Earthquake Caused By Angry Earth, Climate Change

[Ash Wednesday]

Who cares about what Danny Glover has to say? I prefer to not attach an agenda to a natural occurance and just blame earthquakes on plate tectonics, but hey, that's just me. I was in an earthquake of almost the same magnitude in Seattle, but nobody really died -- except one person, of a heart attack. I guess since buildings weren't totally leveled it means we somehow didn't anger God or a false mother nature deity.

Maybe instead of assigning the blame on God or creating some angry vengeful mother nature deity that's somehow responsible, they should consider the real issue, i.e., that a lot of people hadn't died if there was a stronger infrastructure and there wasn't such a vast divide between the world's rich and poor. But I guess people don't really like to think about that reality and who's actually responsible.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Ash Wednesday

[XIX]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='16 January 2010 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1263652363' post='2038431']
Who cares about what Danny Glover has to say? I prefer to not attach an agenda to it and blame it on plate tectonics, but hey, that's just me.
[/quote]
Bah. I blame Cindy.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='XIX' date='16 January 2010 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1263652794' post='2038433']
Bah. I blame Cindy.
[/quote]

[img]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y295/Betterterm/mt.jpg[/img]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='16 January 2010 - 09:32 AM' timestamp='1263652363' post='2038431']
Maybe instead of assigning the blame on God or creating some angry vengeful mother nature deity that's somehow responsible, they should consider the real issue, i.e., that a lot of people hadn't died if there was a stronger infrastructure and there wasn't such a vast divide between the world's rich and poor. But I guess people don't really like to think about that reality and who's actually responsible.
[/quote]

Stronger infrastructure and a vast divide between the rich and the poor . . . yes. What is the reason for that? Haiti has plenty of resources. So do most African regions. Why, then, are they so poor? Hong Kong was nothing but a cluster of rocks. The per capita income in Hong Kong is far greater than Haiti or anywhere in Africa. As long as some people think they have the right to take money from non-aggressive people at gunpoint . . .

~Sternhauser

[Paddington]

Gaia was just [i]looking[/i] for a reason.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 January 2010 - 10:05 AM' timestamp='1263654350' post='2038436']
Stronger infrastructure and a vast divide between the rich and the poor . . . yes. What is the reason for that? Haiti has plenty of resources. So do most African regions. Why, then, are they so poor? Hong Kong was nothing but a cluster of rocks. The per capita income in Hong Kong is far greater than Haiti or anywhere in Africa. As long as some people think they have the right to take money from non-aggressive people at gunpoint . . .

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

The difference is Dictatorship verses Republics and Democracies. As well as Capitalist Nations verse Socialist/Communist Nations.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paddington' date='16 January 2010 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1263656115' post='2038448']
Gaia was just [i]looking[/i] for a reason.
[/quote]


[img]http://thatissophat.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/captainplanet7.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.brandsoftheworld.com/brands/0013/6949/brand.gif[/img]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='16 January 2010 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1263656594' post='2038450']
The difference is Dictatorship verses Republics and Democracies. As well as Capitalist Nations verse Socialist/Communist Nations.
[/quote]

And the only differences [i]among [/i]dictatorships, republics and democracies are merely how much they rob, how they go about robbing, and which non-criminals they brutalize.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 16, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='15 January 2010 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1263608522' post='2038061']
I heard geoligists theorize the cause of this earthquake was actually do to a religion afterall, it seems all the voodoists (is that a word, if not I want to coin it now) have dug up so many graves for ritual uses they have destabilized the very foundation of the land, or maybe not.

ed
[/quote]

Oh whatever. In that case, the digging of more graves for those killed by the earthquake will cause more death, leading to more graves, leading to more earthquakes. If the geologists that think this are right ... Mother Earth is pretty dumb.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 January 2010 - 11:03 AM' timestamp='1263657797' post='2038459']
And the only differences [i]among [/i]dictatorships, republics and democracies are merely how much they rob, how they go about robbing, and which non-criminals they brutalize.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Your rejection of the legitimacy of a just State, such as Free Republics is also a reject of the authority of God. But you can't see that... I understand.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='16 January 2010 - 09:32 AM' timestamp='1263652363' post='2038431']
... I prefer to not attach an agenda to a natural occurance and just blame earthquakes on plate tectonics, but hey, that's just me. ...[/quote]

Here here!!!

These people that believe that it's a just world, and people only get what they "deserve" really struggle when cra'ap just happenes. But you don't have to reach to far to make sense of things. Do you hear me Danny Glover? Pat Robertson? * shakes his fist* It's called science. You should look it up sometime.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='16 January 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1263657946' post='2038460']
Oh whatever. In that case, the digging of more graves for those killed by the earthquake will cause more death, leading to more graves, leading to more earthquakes. If the geologists that think this are right ... Mother Earth is pretty dumb.
[/quote]

I assume he was joking. As it is, most Haitian graveyards are above ground.


~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='16 January 2010 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1263658152' post='2038462']
Your rejection of the legitimacy of a just State, such as Free Republics is also a reject of the authority of God. But you can't see that... I understand.
[/quote]

I don't reject the legitimacy of any just State. I've just never seen one. I've never seen a unicorn, either.

You still haven't given me the Church's magisterial definition of a State, Knight. (This "State" is an entity without any apparent Church definition. An undefined entity which you indirectly say we must acknowledge in order to be saved, because any other understanding of this non-existent definition is "heresy!")

Knight, a lack of a definition really doesn't reflect well on your argument. You might as well say I'm "bound to accept the Kornstadt Transistor as legitimate."

Now, no more document dumping "responses," please, unless you've found a succinct magisterial definition of "the State." I'm quite tired of reading your vague copy-and-paste documents that could be used to uphold [i]anything[/i].

The Catholic Church (to which we both claim adherence) does not say that anyone has to approve or embrace any particular type of governing system. It only says we have to believe that order in society is to be maintained by people with the authority to do so. I'm there. "Authority" does not equal "the right to aggress."

If a "State" can be defined as a system whereby order is maintained in society, I'll take one that operates without the injustice of aggression. (Which is redundant. Anything that uses aggression is, by definition, not [i]maintaining[/i] order, but creating [i]disorder.[/i]) The good end of order does not justify the evil means of aggression.

But "a system whereby order is maintained in society" is not a "State" in the modern understanding of the word. It could be the Church's understanding, however.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 16, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Era Might]

It is unfortunate for Haiti that this earthquake will force them to accept the "charity" of foreign states, particularly the United States. I heard Bill O'Reilly say on his show the other night that the US government should take control of Haiti if that's necessary for properly administering aid. That's just the problem with American do-goodism throughout history. As the saying goes, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. What price will Haiti have to pay for the United State's assistance?

Part of the problem is that the United States has formed this ideal of modernization: superhighways, private cars to drive on the superhighways, skyscrapers, hospitals, schools. Countries like Haiti seek after this "modernization," and they aren't able to attain it. But they try, and in the process they get mired in modernized poverty. For example, institutionalized schooling claims to offer education to everyone, but it really creates a new aristocracy based on how many years of institutionalized schooling you have received. Those who have not passed through enough institutionalized schooling are left on the margins of society; so society builds more schools to reach those people, and it only worsens the problem, because it further entrenches the system of institutionalized schooling, and it condemns to poverty those who do not receive the certification of an institution. Countries like Haiti repeat such errors of the United States, because institutionalization is part of the ideal of "modernization."

The American creation of the private car is seen as part of American capitalistic genius. But it's really part of the trap of modernization that other countries fall into. Americans create "needs" that aren't really needs. We built highways, and by building highways, we created a "need" for private cars, which in turn created the lucrative business of private cars. Countries like Haiti, in order to be "modernized," have to follow this error of American consumerism. They have to create "needs" for things that they don't really need, and by creating the need, you create the market for the product, and thereby generate wealth. But that leads you to a culture of endless consumerism which, as we see in the United States, is killing people's souls.

[Ed Normile]

Era, the highways were actually built to drive commerce and enable security in this country, we have had roads since the settlers beat paths out west to grab land, the difference with the highway system is the ability to move goods safely, limiting the traffic in rural areas, and be able to provide assistance either disaster or military quickly and more efficiently. the safety the highways has brought to small town america is a blessing, large trucks rolling through little towns create the occasion for serious accidents and congestion. Of course the advent of the automobile has driven the country economically, why do you think china is now the largest auto producing country in the world, the freedom the auto provides for the average person enables them to expand their horizons. If your daily commute to work was on a bicycle it would be hard to hold down a job outside your community.

If Haiti had benefitted from modernization I would wager the death toll from this earthquake would be greatly diminished, with a vibrant economy and machines they could have helped themselves more during the initial event and the cleanup and rescue would be far easier. The modernization of their buildings would have greatly reduced the destruction and collapse of their antiquated unstable buildings which failed and caused so much of the death and burials of the population.

ed

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='16 January 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1263664275' post='2038532']
Era, the highways were actually built to drive commerce and enable security in this country, we have had roads since the settlers beat paths out west to grab land, the difference with the highway system is the ability to move goods safely, limiting the traffic in rural areas, and be able to provide assistance either disaster or military quickly and more efficiently. the safety the highways has brought to small town america is a blessing, large trucks rolling through little towns create the occasion for serious accidents and congestion. Of course the advent of the automobile has driven the country economically, why do you think china is now the largest auto producing country in the world, the freedom the auto provides for the average person enables them to expand their horizons. If your daily commute to work was on a bicycle it would be hard to hold down a job outside your community.

If Haiti had benefitted from modernization I would wager the death toll from this earthquake would be greatly diminished, with a vibrant economy and machines they could have helped themselves more during the initial event and the cleanup and rescue would be far easier. The modernization of their buildings would have greatly reduced the destruction and collapse of their antiquated unstable buildings which failed and caused so much of the death and burials of the population.

ed
[/quote]

Another thought , back when commerce was run by those who could afford a horse or camel as a tool for transportation, I would assume those who were afoot suffered in many ways too.

ed

[Era Might]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='16 January 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1263664275' post='2038532']
Era, the highways were actually built to drive commerce and enable security in this country, we have had roads since the settlers beat paths out west to grab land, the difference with the highway system is the ability to move goods safely, limiting the traffic in rural areas, and be able to provide assistance either disaster or military quickly and more efficiently.[/quote]
No doubt, all that was part of the motivation in building the highways. But my point is that building highways created a supposed "need" for private cars, even though cars are not really a "need" for human existence. The private car is not just about transportation, it is also about speed and luxury. Once we had highways, then there was suddenly a "need" for the private car, a "need" which is now part of our culture of endless consumerism.

My point was not so much about the United States, but about countries like Haiti trying to imitate the United States. The "first world" (I deliberately use quotation marks) seeks to "develop" the "third world" (again, I deliberately use quotation marks) by creating things like highways. But the "third world" doesn't have the personal wealth that makes possible our culture of endless consumerism, so there is not the same wealth generated by something like the private car industry. But the "third world" country is convinced that it needs things like highways (and schools, hospitals, etc.) to become "modernized," so rather than creating transportation systems that are appropriate to their country, they want a transportation system like the United States has, a system which requires a desire for private cars which provide speed and luxury. In other words, "development" involves building "modernized" infrastructure modeled after the infrastructure of the "first world." In the process, however, we create a form of poverty that is a consequence of the "modernization" of the "third world," and we erode the culture of independent subsistence that existed in these countries (and in our own country) before "modernization."

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 January 2010 - 11:31 AM' timestamp='1263659479' post='2038476']
I assume he was joking. As it is, most Haitian graveyards are above ground.


~Sternhauser
[/quote]

that's a good point.

[add]

george bush caused it, and global warming and bad hair days and and and and...

[Selah]

It was an EARTHQUAKE people. God didn't do it, Gaea doesn't have emotions (which means she doesn't care if she has a cute, happy ecosystem or if she's gaseous or unihabitable like Jupiter), okay? It was a natural disaster. Help out. Don't blame. Blame games do nothing.

(this is a general rant, by the way, and not directed at anyone in particular...well, maybe Pat Robertson and this bozo, but still...)

Edited January 16, 2010 by Selah