Is Abortion Health Care?

[add]

health care is for the healing of sick or injured. Want's the question?

[Nihil Obstat]

I'd rather see every Catholic hospital close than to see one perform a single abortion. Unfortunately some would probably bow to the pressure, if it came to that.

[Happy_Catholic]

Having your swollen tonsils out, that's health care.

Having your broken leg ORIF'd, that's health care.

Having your diabetes monitored, that's health care.

Having an abortion? That's not health care. That's just a murder of a child and a maiming of a woman wrapped up in a surgical suite to look like health care.

Its 2010, if a person can't avoid pregnancy there's obviously somethign wrong with the ole gray matter.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='16 January 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1263662458' post='2038508']
I'd rather see every Catholic hospital close than to see one perform a single abortion. Unfortunately some would probably bow to the pressure, if it came to that.
[/quote]

A friend of mine and I were discussing this last year when all this started. We noted many bishops, religious, and some Protestants said that they would close their hospitals rather than perform abortions. Now if this were to happen and hospitals were mandated to have to perform abortions, no doubt some would threaten to close. Let's not say a sizable but a fair amount of hospitals did. Now they would not be allowed to close. They would probably be sued to keep them open and their would be an injuction filed. If the Catholic hospitals won the case then the government could declare immanent domain (in the name of the greater good of the people to keep the healthcare system functioning) and take the hospitals and "pay a fair price" and keep them open. If they lost the case the government would probably still take it. In this way the government could gain a foothold in the healthcare business not only through national insurance/healthcare but also in the operation of hospitals. I am not saying that this is all one big conspiracy, that this has been planned from the beginning, or that this is the way it will all go down. However, this is not a good scenario that my friend and I discussed as at the very least possible.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='16 January 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1263669623' post='2038620']
A friend of mine and I were discussing this last year when all this started. We noted many bishops, religious, and some Protestants said that they would close their hospitals rather than perform abortions. Now if this were to happen and hospitals were mandated to have to perform abortions, no doubt some would threaten to close. Let's not say a sizable but a fair amount of hospitals did. Now they would not be allowed to close. They would probably be sued to keep them open and their would be an injuction filed. If the Catholic hospitals won the case then the government could declare immanent domain (in the name of the greater good of the people to keep the healthcare system functioning) and take the hospitals and "pay a fair price" and keep them open. If they lost the case the government would probably still take it. In this way the government could gain a foothold in the healthcare business not only through national insurance/healthcare but also in the operation of hospitals. I am not saying that this is all one big conspiracy, that this has been planned from the beginning, or that this is the way it will all go down. However, this is not a good scenario that my friend and I discussed as at the very least possible.
[/quote]
That's a very frightening scenario.
If that were to come about, would the Catholic administrators of the hospital have the right to quit en masse?

[elizabeth09]

If we are allow abortion everywhere, I think that the Catholic hospitals should not allow abortion to be there. Coming from a pro-life background, I think that we should put the effort of having children then not having children.

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='16 January 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1263678782' post='2038708']
That's a very frightening scenario.
If that were to come about, would the Catholic administrators of the hospital have the right to quit en masse?
[/quote]

The thing is, are Catholic hospitals manned by Catholic administrators? OR are they Catholics like those monkies over at "catholics for a free choice"?

I believe it was Jill Stanek who blew the story about Christ's Hospital doing late term abortions and leaving children born alive during abortions to die in bed pans et al. I'm not sure if its Catholic, but with a name like "Christ's" its gotta be at least Christian. And there have been other "Catholic" hospitals getting busted for such anti-Catholic offenses.

I'd really like our leadership to crack down on Catholic hospitals and universities that flaunt their position as Catholic and then support abortion or allow it to be performed on site.

[rhetoricfemme]

It's anti-health care. It's.. Death care?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='16 January 2010 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1263669623' post='2038620']
A friend of mine and I were discussing this last year when all this started. We noted many bishops, religious, and some Protestants said that they would close their hospitals rather than perform abortions. Now if this were to happen and hospitals were mandated to have to perform abortions, no doubt some would threaten to close. Let's not say a sizable but a fair amount of hospitals did. Now they would not be allowed to close. They would probably be sued to keep them open and their would be an injuction filed. If the Catholic hospitals won the case then the government could declare immanent domain (in the name of the greater good of the people to keep the healthcare system functioning) and take the hospitals and "pay a fair price" and keep them open. If they lost the case the government would probably still take it. In this way the government could gain a foothold in the healthcare business not only through national insurance/healthcare but also in the operation of hospitals. I am not saying that this is all one big conspiracy, that this has been planned from the beginning, or that this is the way it will all go down. However, this is not a good scenario that my friend and I discussed as at the very least possible.
[/quote]
I think the next step by the federal government will be to nationalize the country's hospitals.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Arpy]

Abortion is health care like ethnic cleansing is altruistic.

[HarmonyServant]

Healthcare is to promote health and healing. Since abortion is nothing but murder, it's not healthcare. Doctors and hospitals are to heal, never harm.

[Veridicus]

To summarize an ethics paper I wrote in my first year of medical school surveying the topic of Physician Assisted Suicide which is equally applicable to this question:


[b][u]Death is not treatment[/u][/b].





I solemnly pledge myself to consecrate my life to the service of humanity:
I will give to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their due;
I will practice my profession with conscience and dignity;
The health and life of my patient will be my first consideration;
I will respect the secrets which are confided in me;
I will maintain by all means in my power, the honor and the noble traditions of the medical profession;
My colleagues will be my brothers
I will not permit considerations of religion, nationality, race, party politics or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I will maintain the utmost respect for human life, from the time of its conception, even under threat, I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the laws of humanity;
I make these promises solemnly, freely and upon my honor.

Hippocratic Oath
Declaration of Geneva
General Assembly of the World Medical Association, 1948

[add]

Unfortunately, it is official, according to the 2010 democratic universal health plan; pregnancy is a disease.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 January 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1263699007' post='2038890']
Unfortunately, it is official, according to the 2010 democratic universal health plan; pregnancy is a disease.
[/quote]

The medical field has been treating fertility as a disease for decades. My progessor/MD who gave our Pharmacology Reproductive Drugs lecture kept trying to classify Mefipristone as a contraceptive rather than an abortifacient since it 'prevents implantation'. To do this, he intentionally and erroneously synonymized the words "conception" and "implantation." Conception and Implantation are not in fact synonyms as any 1st year biology major could tell you. "Conception" and "Fertilization" ARE in fact synonyms. Contraceptives are not contra-conception in many cases. And in fact the progesterone based pills function primarily though cervical glandular changes and by making the endometrium inhospitible to implantation rather than by stopping ovulation.

It's all a semantic joke. If you can change the definitions of words then you can change reality to make it more palatable for the masses. At least that is what these people have been attempting to do.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Veridicus

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='16 January 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1263699494' post='2038894']
The medical field has been treating fertility as a disease for decades. My progessor/MD who gave our Pharmacology Reproductive Drugs lecture kept trying to classify Mefipristone as a contraceptive rather than an abortifacient since it 'prevents implantation'. To do this, he intentionally and erroneously synonymized the words "conception" and "implantation."
[/quote]

When I did my training, our lecturer for this topic spoke of RU-486 or Mifegyne as its known down here, was just another form of ECP. The thing is, while it can be used, in the ECP's time frame, it can be used up till like 60 days or so. It also has an act of attacking fast growing cells and preventing nutrition being given to the embryo.

But our lecturer was also talking about ECP was not abortion and Mifegyne was not abortion. However, abortion ends a pregnancy, and pregnancy doesn't start till implantation, so if it kills the zygote/child before implantation its not technically an abortion.

Its quite sickening really.

Then she started off on a rant about ECP/Mifegyene/IUDs are against some people's "religion" because they think that contraception is wrong.

Of course, I was quick to point out to this lady that it wasn't wrong because it was contraception, (well, that was part of it) but it was morally debase because it KILLS a child.

Life begins at conception, anything that a human does that interfers with that directly with the intent of prevention of implantation or something that seeks its destruction is morally repugnant.

[Veridicus]

In my opinion, the physics and physiology of contraceptive methods are mostly semantic. "Preventing implantation" is a joke. The progesterone doses render the endometrial lining incapable of forming a viable placental interface. I have yet to be convinced by anything I've read that the blastocyst bounces off the endometrium like a pinball and we can forget about the "products of conception" while they are too small to notice. It is entirely possible these "preventing implantation" progestin-based BCPs and ECPs simply mean the blastocyst attaches to the endometrial lining but then its trophoblastic layers cannot fully penetrate the luminal surface to access the spiral arteries (which haven't adequately developed). In this case I would say the blastocyst 'implanted', just terminally so. Thus the medical definition of abortion could still hold if these blastocysts aren't bouncing off like pinballs.

It's all semantics. People with agendas have been using semantics to justify murder since the beginning. With abortion and OCPs we just have to pretend we don't know where the blastocyst is or where its sticking to...afterall its only a few dozen cells...we wouldt notice if it bounced off or implanted and then died...its too small to bleed...too small to scream for nutrients. Just a matter of location and there's no one watching, right? Same semantics as have always been used.

"How am I to know where he is? Am I my brother's keeper?"

Edited January 17, 2010 by Veridicus

[Nunsense]

I think someone made a good point above. How Catholic are Catholic hospitals? I mean, if Notre Dame University gave Obama an honorary degree and invited him to speak, then what does "Catholic" mean to some people? In fact, how Catholic are many Catholics these days? Until all Catholics are living their faith, then how can we expect others to understand? What we need to do is pray for conversion experiences for all Catholics who are not living their faith and the teachings of the Church. Maybe we could all add a little extra prayer at the end of the day for our Blessed Mother to intercede for all Catholics by asking Jesus to turn our watered down Catholicism into the sweet wine of the True Faith!

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='16 January 2010 - 02:20 PM' timestamp='1263669623' post='2038620']
A friend of mine and I were discussing this last year when all this started. We noted many bishops, religious, and some Protestants said that they would close their hospitals rather than perform abortions. Now if this were to happen and hospitals were mandated to have to perform abortions, no doubt some would threaten to close. Let's not say a sizable but a fair amount of hospitals did. Now they would not be allowed to close. They would probably be sued to keep them open and their would be an injuction filed. If the Catholic hospitals won the case then the government could declare immanent domain (in the name of the greater good of the people to keep the healthcare system functioning) and take the hospitals and "pay a fair price" and keep them open. If they lost the case the government would probably still take it. In this way the government could gain a foothold in the healthcare business not only through national insurance/healthcare but also in the operation of hospitals. I am not saying that this is all one big conspiracy, that this has been planned from the beginning, or that this is the way it will all go down. However, this is not a good scenario that my friend and I discussed as at the very least possible.
[/quote]

I would say this is not far fetched but actually the design of this administration. The government already owns shares in chevy and chrysler, which it will never relinquish as it can now mandate what they sell and how they sell it remember cash for clunkers?. The banking industry has paid back their loans with interest and Obama announced the other day he would tax them to retrieve monies not paid back by the auto industry, he laid this off to them being unfair with the bonuses to executives, the very same execs who were responsible for the profits which allowed them to pay of the debt.
If a catholic or any religious hospital were to close to oppose abortion the government would simply take it over for the public good, a cheap way to gain more power and control over the citenzry. Face it folks healthcare and health related services are a major part of the economy, and as we are moving towards a socialist country we have no place for God in the equation. Look at the aspect of mandated healthcare, we must buy it or face fines and jailtime, part of this bill is unlimited access to abortion, all abortion even late term abortion, and abortion access to children without their parents consent and as catholics we are not allowed to participate in this. On the other hand if we do not we are in violation of the law, so we either become a criminal or we become a sinner.

ed

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='17 January 2010 - 02:20 AM' timestamp='1263712814' post='2039015']
In my opinion, the physics and physiology of contraceptive methods are mostly semantic. "Preventing implantation" is a joke. [/quote]

A doctor was telling me once, and it was backed up in some of the literature I've seen, that no one really knows how things like IUDs actually work. Or the pill, its all a kind of stab in the dark sort of thing.

But however it works, its not good really. My (unmarried) sister was on the pill for 3 years, and now she wants to have a child with her fiancee, she hasn't been able to fall pregnant. She's 26, he's 25 and they've been trying for a year. Its hard to beleive at their age that it could be something physical.

[quote]"How am I to know where he is? Am I my brother's keeper?"
[/quote]

Its worse in this situation, as its "Am I my child's keeper?" Its one thing to shun your siblings, but a whole different ball game when you kill your own child!

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='17 January 2010 - 02:06 AM' timestamp='1263715601' post='2039026']
no one really knows how things like IUDs actually work. Or the pill, its all a kind of stab in the dark sort of thing.
[/quote]

What a chillingly a propros way of phrasing it. Stab in the dark, indeed.