Scruples - Is It Just Another Form Of Pride?

[Nunsense]

To set the stage, non-Catholics see scruples differently than Catholics. Having scruples in the world is a good thing, it means having a conscience basically. There is even a group game called Scruples in which people are asked to say what they would do in a particular situation... and the more scruples one has, the "better person" one is.

In Catholicism it means being overly conscientious though so when someone asked me once if I had scruples, I thought, yes, sure, of course I do, until I found out that this meant something bad, worrying too much about sin in fact to the ponit where every little thing is blown out of proportion.

My question for the debate is whether this kind of scrupulosity is really just a hidden form of pride - wanting to be perfect, perhaps to get the admiration of others, or is it a type of illness, like obsessive compulsive disorder, which a person can't really help?

I have opinions (of course), but I would like to know what others think...

[Maximilianus]

Good grief. I suffer from scrupolosity, and now I'm going to worry if my scruples is a cardinal sin. Gee thanks a lot

[tinytherese]

It would have to depend on the individual. This is where spiritual direction would help someone to see their motives. For some it may be pride, others may be perfectionists, mental issues, or perhaps the person has good intentions--trying to be holy but they go about it the wrong way.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Maximilianus' date='23 January 2010 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1264223922' post='2042674']
Good grief. I suffer from scrupolosity, and now I'm going to worry if my scruples is a cardinal sin. Gee thanks a lot
[/quote]


Oh, I am so sorry, I had no intention of doing that! I think sometimes I suffer from scruples too but then I also worry that this might be pride, so maybe it is just more scruples! Maybe I will be sorry I started this thread! So sorry....

[Nunsense]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='23 January 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1264223943' post='2042676']
It would have to depend on the individual. This is where spiritual direction would help someone to see their motives. For some it may be pride, others may be perfectionists, mental issues, or perhaps the person has good intentions--trying to be holy but they go about it the wrong way.
[/quote]


You are so smart, and that is one of the reasons I have a SD - I worry too much about things and he tells me to relax! We need more good SDs - first more priests then more trained as good (holy) SDs. Good advice though!

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='nunsense' date='23 January 2010 - 01:24 AM' timestamp='1264224281' post='2042682']
Oh, I am so sorry, I had no intention of doing that! I think sometimes I suffer from scruples too but then I also worry that this might be pride, so maybe it is just more scruples! Maybe I will be sorry I started this thread! So sorry....
[/quote]

Just messing with you, but seriously if you would have made this thread a few years you would have had me worrying because at that time my scruples were at their peak.

[quote]I think sometimes I suffer from scruples too but then I also worry that this might be pride, so maybe it is just more scruples![/quote]

If you think you might have scrupolosity check this place out. It that has helped me deal with my scruples.
http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/scrupanon.htm

Edited January 23, 2010 by Maximilianus

[Happy_Catholic]

It reminds me of that episode of the Simpsons where Homer started doing good works for his own benefit of emotional gain, Ned Flanders got horribly jealous and tried to one up Homer.

I never considered scruples as a form of pride, but then, one could argue, that any morality or principals could be seen as the same. I believe the Bible and Jesus speak of doing our good works privately and not for public awareness.

I often wonder if I'm sinning in some way, as I dislike attention and praise so I do my "good works" behind the scenes. I'd probably still do a "good deed" if it was really good but meant I'd get people looking at me, but I'd still be horribly uncomfortable about it.

But you see it a bit in the Pro-Life movement and in Christianity, people trying to out do each other in generosity. I know a lady who found out my parents were giving to a poor family some clothes and toys and such, so this woman barged over there with enough food to feed a small army, she then started steering conversations towards how much she gave to this family.

[HisChildForever]

I see scrupulosity as stemming from anxiety, not pride.

[Nihil Obstat]

I can imagine it being a form of pride for some people, but I think it's more likely to be a lack of trust in the mercy and redeeming power of God more than anything.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[reyb]

If it is about your accepted religious doctrines and your teachers said ‘it is pride’ (since you will question the truthfulness of their teachings brought by your doubt), it means, it is in their relief if you will listen to them and they are not good teachers.

These teachers have forgotten, how can you doubt - even if you are willing – if you know the truth?

Now, if you are truly looking for the truth which leads you to become ‘doubtful’ to your accepted belief - it is a sign of awakening using your common sense and it is good. It is not pride because, how can you take pride on things you do not know?

Seek the truth and everything will be okay.

[Ephrem Augustine]

Sometimes i think we are so impressed with our idea that we can win over God by doing the right thing, and we forget that we need grace to grow into the saint that God calls us to be.
I think, on average, we can just grow up thinking all of it is left in our hands.

[BibleReader]

I think its a matter of heart. Christ condemned anyone who sought praise from humans. He basically says the anytime we do something for the sake of receiving praise from any person, we reap our reward on earth and that is an earthly thing. When we do things for the love of Christ and because we know its right, seeking righteousness with God, then we are doing so for the right reasons. Our duty is to spread the word, and also to try, out of love, to follow Christ. God put these rules in order so that they may benefit us, not so we can find a good feeling in doing so. When you admit to something you have done wrong, you seldom feel good about, knowing there are more consequences, but you know it is right, and it is God's will, so you do it anyways. If you do things for the sake of righteousness then they will benefit you in eternity, these are the things which are blessed.

[Resurrexi]

I'd say scruples is definitely caused more by OCD than by pride.

[Nunsense]

So then, if a person does NOT have scruples, would you say that s/he is an "unscrupulous person?" hmmmm....

I don't think I should have used the word "pride" so much as "spiritual pride" because what I was trying to get at is how one can start out with the intention of trying not to offend God, and then end up developing a sense of spiritual pride at how hard one is trying (despite knowing that one is a sinner and that is through the grace of God)!

But then sometimes I do get way too deep into these things when I should just be more trusting and childlike. It comes from being too analytical.

The mercy of God, yes..... thank you for all these thoughtful replies.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='reyb' date='24 January 2010 - 03:12 AM' timestamp='1264263175' post='2042826']
If it is about your accepted religious doctrines and your teachers said ‘it is pride’ (since you will question the truthfulness of their teachings brought by your doubt), it means, it is in their relief if you will listen to them and they are not good teachers.

These teachers have forgotten, how can you doubt - even if you are willing – if you know the truth?

Now, if you are truly looking for the truth which leads you to become ‘doubtful’ to your accepted belief - it is a sign of awakening using your common sense and it is good. It is not pride because, how can you take pride on things you do not know?

Seek the truth and everything will be okay.
[/quote]


I am sorry but I don't really understand what you are trying to say here, and how it relates to scruples as being caused by pride? It could be a language problem, I don't know, but could you try again, stating what you are saying in another way? I am not confused about teachings here, but about motivation and cause and effect relating to scruples.

[zunshynn]

Well, every sin is a form of pride... and scrupulosity can be sinful, but of course fear, force of habit, and mental and emotional balances create extenuating factors in a person's culpability. It is my understanding that it is often a combination of anxiety which is simply a dominant trait of certain people's emotional makeup, and also in a certain sense, pride (even if the person is not conscious of that. Like nihil said, it is a lack of trust in the redeeming power of God... but that right there IS pride. It is pride to think that anything of mine, including my sins, is greater than God's mercy. At the same time... that pride is often largely due to emotional issues that a person is not entirely in control of... whether due to personality, or experiences which have led that person to have a conscience that is not well-formed, and thus, scrupulous.

Edited January 25, 2010 by zunshynn

[Nunsense]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='25 January 2010 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1264393404' post='2044006']
Well, every sin is a form of pride... and scrupolosity can be sinful, but of course fear, force of habit, and mental and emotional balances create extenuating factors in a person's culpability. It is my understanding that it is often a combination of anxiety which is simply a dominant trait of certain people's emotional makeup, and also in a certain sense, pride (even if the person is not conscious of that. Like nihil said, it is a lack of trust in the redeeming power of God... but that right there IS pride. It is pride to think that anything of mine, including my sins, is greater than God's mercy. At the same time... that pride is often largely due to emotional issues that a person is not entirely in control of... whether due to personality, or experiences which have led that person to have a conscience that is not well-formed, and thus, scrupulous.
[/quote]

I like the way you describe that, thank you. I am thinking more and more that it is as you said, about not trusting God, but also in not focusing enough on Him (which causes us not to trust Him). When we look at ourselves too much, it is from a kind of vanity (sin of pride) and this can cause scruples, but also as you say, this may not be the only cause. But if we look at Him instead, we can focus not so much on our sins as on His mercy. I know that once I came out of Confession and was still thinking about what I had confessed and feeling bad about my sins, when I had to mentally shake myself and say "You have just been forgiven and absolved and done your penance. You are reconciled. Now stop thinking about yourself and start being grateful to God for His mercy in making this Sacrament possible."
That changed my whole outlook.

Thanks again.