Mahoney 'watch' In L.a.? Days Numbered?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='24 January 2010 - 06:12 PM' timestamp='1264378360' post='2043794']
Now, now... watch the name calling. That's not cool.
[/quote]

I apologize; let me articulate my disapproval less lazily without criticizing the Bishop: While nearly $200,000,000 was spent on the L.A. Cathedral, my opinion following the virtual tour and available online pics leave me feeling that it lacks architectural continuity with what I find beautiful in preceding centuries of Catholic church development. I find its opulence and ostentation a waste.

And for the record, I really do think the Tabernacle looks like something from the Alien series. Something out of the horrified mind of H.R. Giger.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Veridicus

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='24 January 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1264377433' post='2043784']


Rococo is a beautiful style of ecclesiastical architecture that admirably demonstrates the noble simplicity of the Roman Rite:

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2vkx75y.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]
In my personal opinion, while it is beautiful, this Church is a little overwhelming. I prefer, for my own part, the dark grandeur and focus and overall nobility of gothic architecture.
[img]http://www.shafe.co.uk/crystal/images/lshafe/Wells_Cathedral_nave.jpg[/img]
[img]http://passport2intculture.com/images/9._wells.cathedral.inverted.arch.jpg[/img]

I believe that's an Anglican cathedral, but it was built in 1180 or so.
[img]http://ujtravels.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/img_1591-high-altar1.jpg[/img]

[Veridicus]

It was built a Catholic Cathedral by Bishops in union with Rome. And I also enjoy the cool austerity of Gothic stone. Reminds me of the Empty Tomb on Easter and of dying with Christ in Baptism.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Veridicus

[Nihil Obstat]

Interestingly, newadvent is very critical of rococo.

" It might be termed the climax or degeneration of the Baroque, which, coupled with French grace, began towards the end of the reign of Louis XIV to convert grotesques into curves, lines, and bands (Jean Bérain, 1638-1711)."

"To a race grown effeminate to the Baroque forms seemed too coarse and heavy, the lines too straight and stiff, and whole impression to weighty and forced. The small and the light, sweeps and flourishes, caught the public taste; in the interiors the architectonic had to yield to the picturesque, the curious, and the whimsical. There develops a style for elegant parlours, dainty sitting-rooms and boudoirs, drawing-rooms and libraries, in which walls, ceiling, furniture, and works of metal and porcelain present one ensemble of sportive, fantastic, and sculptured forms. The horizontal lines are almost completely superseded by curves and interruptions, the vertical varied at least by knots; everywhere shell-like curves appear to a cusp; the natural construction of the walls is concealed behind thick stucco-framework; on the ceiling perhaps a glimpse of Olympus enchants the view--all executed in a beautiful white or in bright colour tones. All the simple laws and rules being set aside in favour of free and enchanting imaginativeness, the fancy received all the greater incentive to activity, and the senses were the more keenly requisitioned. Everything vigorous is banned, every suggestion of earnestness; nothing disturbs the shallow repose of distinguished banality; the sportively graceful and light appears side by side with the elegant and the ingenious. The sculptor Bouchardon represented Cupid engaged in carving his darts of love from the club of Hercules; this serves as an excellent symbol of the Rococo style--the demigod is transformed into the soft child, the bone-shattering club becomes the heart-scathing arrows, just as marble is so freely replaced by stucco. Effeminacy, softness, and caprice attitudinize before us."

"For the church Rococo may be, generally speaking, compared with worldly church music. It lacks of simplicity, earnestness, and repose is evident, while its obtrusive artificiality, unnaturalness, and triviality have a distracting effect. Its softness and prettiness likewise do not become the house of God. However, shorn of its most grievous outgrowths, it may have been less distracting during its proper epoch, since it then harmonized with the spirit of the age. A development of Baroque, it will be found a congruous decoration for baroque churches. In general it makes a vast difference whether the style is used with moderation in the finer and more ingenious form of the French masters, or is carried to extremes with the consistency of the German. "

Edited January 25, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 January 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1264379429' post='2043800']
Interestingly, newadvent is very critical of rococo.

" It might be termed the climax or degeneration of the Baroque, which, coupled with French grace, began towards the end of the reign of Louis XIV to convert grotesques into curves, lines, and bands (Jean Bérain, 1638-1711)."

"To a race grown effeminate to the Baroque forms seemed too coarse and heavy, the lines too straight and stiff, and whole impression to weighty and forced. The small and the light, sweeps and flourishes, caught the public taste; in the interiors the architectonic had to yield to the picturesque, the curious, and the whimsical. There develops a style for elegant parlours, dainty sitting-rooms and boudoirs, drawing-rooms and libraries, in which walls, ceiling, furniture, and works of metal and porcelain present one ensemble of sportive, fantastic, and sculptured forms. The horizontal lines are almost completely superseded by curves and interruptions, the vertical varied at least by knots; everywhere shell-like curves appear to a cusp; the natural construction of the walls is concealed behind thick stucco-framework; on the ceiling perhaps a glimpse of Olympus enchants the view--all executed in a beautiful white or in bright colour tones. All the simple laws and rules being set aside in favour of free and enchanting imaginativeness, the fancy received all the greater incentive to activity, and the senses were the more keenly requisitioned. Everything vigorous is banned, every suggestion of earnestness; nothing disturbs the shallow repose of distinguished banality; the sportively graceful and light appears side by side with the elegant and the ingenious. The sculptor Bouchardon represented Cupid engaged in carving his darts of love from the club of Hercules; this serves as an excellent symbol of the Rococo style--the demigod is transformed into the soft child, the bone-shattering club becomes the heart-scathing arrows, just as marble is so freely replaced by stucco. Effeminacy, softness, and caprice attitudinize before us."

"For the church Rococo may be, generally speaking, compared with worldly church music. It lacks of simplicity, earnestness, and repose is evident, while its obtrusive artificiality, unnaturalness, and triviality have a distracting effect. Its softness and prettiness likewise do not become the house of God. However, shorn of its most grievous outgrowths, it may have been less distracting during its proper epoch, since it then harmonized with the spirit of the age. A development of Baroque, it will be found a congruous decoration for baroque churches. In general it makes a vast difference whether the style is used with moderation in the finer and more ingenious form of the French masters, or is carried to extremes with the consistency of the German. "
[/quote]

I'd love to hear what such minds of Architecture would say of edifices like the LA Cathedral. Most surely their words would be more scathing and critical than my only mildly architecturally-knowledgeable self.

[Veridicus]

According to one book on Church Architecture I've read, the growths and retractions of prior epochs of Church architecture always maintained a logical sense of ordering Sacred Space despite extreme variation in decoration or medium. In modern churches the sanctuary and tabernacle and nave have become confused. It is in this [i]lack of Sacred Space[/i] that the modernist architecture reveals its great inadequacy as expression of Christian iconography. The Church IS an icon in which lex orandi, lex credendi.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='24 January 2010 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1264379576' post='2043801']
I'd love to hear what such minds of Architecture would say of edifices like the LA Cathedral. Most surely their words would be more scathing and critical than my only mildly architecturally-knowledgeable self.
[/quote]
I shudder to think...

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 January 2010 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1264379086' post='2043797']
In my personal opinion, while it is beautiful, this Church is a little overwhelming. I prefer, for my own part, the dark grandeur and focus and overall nobility of gothic architecture.[/quote]

As evidenced by my post earlier, I love Baroque architecture. I also, however, have a great passion for Gothic church architecture.

That said, by favorite kind of ecclesiastical architecture is Latin Byzantine (and neo-Byzantine):

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3226/3016404329_8fef37eae5.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/images/veneto/venice/san-marco/resized/interior-cc-petunia2323.jpg[/img]

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1096/1407791715_9991f0ebaf.jpg[/img]

[img]http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080405/080405-papal-hmed-10a.hmedium.jpg[/img]

[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/166/356281078_1f019d6222.jpg[/img]

[Veridicus]

Worst Church EVER Built.

[img]http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/87/Wotruba_kirche.jpg[/img]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='24 January 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1264380287' post='2043807']
Worst Church EVER Built.

[img]http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/87/Wotruba_kirche.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Agreed. This is entirely inappropriate for Christian worship.

Seems very pagan to me.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 January 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1264380854' post='2043809']
Agreed. This is entirely inappropriate for Christian worship.

Seems very pagan to me.
[/quote]

I am sure that even pagans would find this distasteful and uninspiring. It's like someone slayed a giant modernist beast and skinned in and it had concrete for bones.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='24 January 2010 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1264380939' post='2043810']
I am sure that even pagans would find this distasteful and uninspiring. It's like someone slayed a giant modernist beast and skinned in and it had concrete for bones.
[/quote]
I say pagan because to me it looks like Stonehenge got ripped up and dropped into a big pile. Feels just completely wrong.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 January 2010 - 06:56 PM' timestamp='1264380995' post='2043811']
I say pagan because to me it looks like Stonehenge got ripped up and dropped into a big pile. Feels just completely wrong.
[/quote]

I don't know the numbers offhand, but I'm assuming this place has limited attendance to Sunday Mass. I could be wrong. Perhaps Nihilism is an intrinsic part of modern Catholic Iconography that I am just too old-fashioned to comprehend. The artistic elite seem to understand and we mere commoners just haven't evolved enough to appreciate this building's brilliance and theological perfection.

[CatherineM]

I wouldn't mind living there. I like concrete.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='24 January 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1264377433' post='2043784']


Rococo is a beautiful style of ecclesiastical architecture that admirably demonstrates the noble simplicity of the Roman Rite:
[/quote]

I never said [i]all[/i] rococo was garish and gaudy, just a lot of it. Here's Exhibit A:

[img]http://www.french-furniture.eu/images/elaborate.jpg[/img]

I also don't really see how the image you posted, beautiful as it may be, demonstrates anything like "simplicity."

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2vkx75y.jpg[/IMG]