Angry Parish Erupts At Bishop

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='10 February 2010 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1265852551' post='2054995']
Anyway, this explains my opinion on this side note: [url="http://thepenciledone.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/when-even-rainbows-are-chained/"]When Even Rainbows Are Chained[/url]
[/quote]

You've gotten some colorful comments. No pun intended.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 February 2010 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1265853187' post='2055000']
You've gotten some colorful comments. No pun intended.
[/quote]

Oh yes I know.

It's amazing though, cause I didn't even get offensive or even really directly attack their "culture"

Oh well.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='10 February 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1265852551' post='2054995']
Oh sure ok then.


Now, I understand the liturgical color argument, which is fine.

The side note is the fact that does rainbow really HAVE to mean gay rights?

As to the eariler communist reference, there is a difference between colors and symbols and rainbow is a pattern or group of colors togeather, while the communist symbol is group of objects put together so the two mediums are quite different so the analogy is actually invalid.

Anyway, this explains my opinion on this side note: [url="http://thepenciledone.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/when-even-rainbows-are-chained/"]When Even Rainbows Are Chained[/url]

Another reason I take a bit of offense to this is that my Mother knitted me a beautiful scarf with rainbow yarn and I hear the joke too much. Would think better of the phatmassers here not to get hung up on the worldly connotation, but then we are human.
[/quote]
There is nothing wrong with a rainbow scarf, or a rainbow t-shirt, but the use of rainbow imagery on liturgical vestments is simply not traditional.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='10 February 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1265852551' post='2054995']
Oh sure ok then.


Now, I understand the liturgical color argument, which is fine.

The side note is the fact that does rainbow really HAVE to mean gay rights?

As to the eariler communist reference, there is a difference between colors and symbols and rainbow is a pattern or group of colors togeather, while the communist symbol is group of objects put together so the two mediums are quite different so the analogy is actually invalid.

Anyway, this explains my opinion on this side note: [url="http://thepenciledone.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/when-even-rainbows-are-chained/"]When Even Rainbows Are Chained[/url]

Another reason I take a bit of offense to this is that my Mother knitted me a beautiful scarf with rainbow yarn and I hear the joke too much. Would think better of the phatmassers here not to get hung up on the worldly connotation, but then we are human.
[/quote]

The liturgical aspect is a non-issue, as far as I'm concerned, so I'm not going to comment on that.

However as far as the rainbow HAVING to be associated with gay "rights"... it simply does because that's what other people associate it with, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

For example, blue and red are gang colors... Even if I think it's dumb for a color to be associated with a gang, other people associate the two regardless of my opinion on the matter. So if I decide not to wear red or blue when I go to Oakland, am I getting "hung up on the worldly connotation", or am I being reasonably cautious by not wearing something that potentially could get me involved in a gang fight and possibly killed? I'm pretty sure I'm just being cautious and aware of what other people take those colors to mean.

No one said there's anything wrong with anyone wearing rainbow colors. If you want to, do it... but whether it's right or not, it HAS been claimed by the gay pride movement, and one is likely to associate someone donning those colors with gay pride. In some cases that could be scandalous to a certain degree if someone were to know that you profess to be Catholic, but don't know you well enough to know that you don't support homosexual lifestyles (I'm not referring to you specifically, just in general).

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 February 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1265851230' post='2054991']
A simplified diagram showing the relationships between the major liturgical rites:

[img]http://sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/metamorphosis/liturgical_diagram.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

That is very interesting! Thank you!

So does Antioch have any kind of primacy over the Patriarchate of Constantinople since it stemmed from it, or are they now basically equal?

Edited February 11, 2010 by zunshynn

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='10 February 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1265855235' post='2055019']
So does Antioch have any kind of primacy over the Patriarchate of Constantinople since it stemmed from it, or are they now basically equal?
[/quote]
No, the diagram only focuses on the origin of the different liturgical rites, and not on the canonical authority of the various Churches.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='10 February 2010 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1265852551' post='2054995']
Oh sure ok then.


Now, I understand the liturgical color argument, which is fine.

The side note is the fact that does rainbow really HAVE to mean gay rights?

As to the eariler communist reference, there is a difference between colors and symbols and rainbow is a pattern or group of colors togeather, while the communist symbol is group of objects put together so the two mediums are quite different so the analogy is actually invalid.

Anyway, this explains my opinion on this side note: [url="http://thepenciledone.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/when-even-rainbows-are-chained/"]When Even Rainbows Are Chained[/url]

Another reason I take a bit of offense to this is that my Mother knitted me a beautiful scarf with rainbow yarn and I hear the joke too much. Would think better of the phatmassers here not to get hung up on the worldly connotation, but then we are human.
[/quote]


You have some interesting points though I disagree that the rainbow is not a symbol. It symbolizes the covenant. I see on some Catholic websites the argument made that the seven colors of the rainbow can also symbolize the seven sacraments. In St. John's Apocalypse we read "His face gleamed like such precious stones as jasper and carnelian, and all round the throne there was a rainbow the colour of an emerald." Rev4:3.
But you are right, the rainbow does not HAVE to mean "gay rights".
This raises the question to me of whether we are allowing the "gay rights movement" to co-opt what in fact is one of the oldest Judeo-Christian symbols, much as they have already co-opted the word "gay". Something to think about. I guess the problem is that I don't recall seeing rainbows on vestments PRIOR to its adoption by the "gay" movement.
Of course, the fact that your scarf is sending the wrong message to others illustrates the whole problem really and why some object to "rainbow" vestments. This tends to undermine your position, not strengthen it.

S.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='10 February 2010 - 06:33 PM' timestamp='1265844821' post='2054952']
That's one of the reasons we have Lefebvrites.
[/quote]

Calling SSPXers "Lefebvrites" is like calling Eastern Orthodox Christians "heretical Eastern schismatics". It may be true description, but it is not one that the followers of the group appreciate, nor is it a name that is likely to help dialogue.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Slappo' date='10 February 2010 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1265849392' post='2054986']
I don't know of a Roman Rite
[/quote]

The Roman Rite is actually one of several rites and uses in the Latin Church. The others being the Dominican Rite, Sarum Rite, Anglican Use, etc.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='10 February 2010 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1265857474' post='2055041']
Calling SSPXers "Lefebvrites" is like calling Eastern Orthodox Christians "heretical Eastern schismatics". It may be true description, but it is not one that the followers of the group appreciate, nor is it a name that is likely to help dialogue.
[/quote]

I've never heard that members of the SSPX resent being called Lefebvrites. Do they dislike their founder? As the SSPX currently has no canonical status it is not clear to me that there are any guidelines stating how we are to refer to them. As they reject all dialogue and compromise, it's a moot point. Trumpeting Vatican I at every opportunity is also not conducive to dialogue with the Orthodox, or anyone else. It is not the approach the Church has taken since Vatican II.


S.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Skinzo

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='10 February 2010 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1265852551' post='2054995']
Oh sure ok then.


Now, I understand the liturgical color argument, which is fine.

The side note is the fact that does rainbow really HAVE to mean gay rights?

As to the eariler communist reference, there is a difference between colors and symbols and rainbow is a pattern or group of colors togeather, while the communist symbol is group of objects put together so the two mediums are quite different so the analogy is actually invalid.

Anyway, this explains my opinion on this side note: [url="http://thepenciledone.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/when-even-rainbows-are-chained/"]When Even Rainbows Are Chained[/url]

Another reason I take a bit of offense to this is that my Mother knitted me a beautiful scarf with rainbow yarn and I hear the joke too much. Would think better of the phatmassers here not to get hung up on the worldly connotation, but then we are human.
[/quote]

You need a t-shirt, ThePenciledOne. Start takin' the rainbow back.

[img]http://images0.cafepress.com/product/68583180v1_480x480_Front.jpg[/img]

~Sternhauser

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='10 February 2010 - 09:41 PM' timestamp='1265859689' post='2055075']
You need a t-shirt, ThePenciledOne. Start takin' the rainbow back.

[img]http://images0.cafepress.com/product/68583180v1_480x480_Front.jpg[/img]

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

so not [size="5"]GAY [/size]that the word gay is the biggest word on the shirt and its okay.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='10 February 2010 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1265857474' post='2055041']
Calling SSPXers "Lefebvrites" is like calling Eastern Orthodox Christians "heretical Eastern schismatics". It may be true description, but it is not one that the followers of the group appreciate, nor is it a name that is likely to help dialogue.
[/quote]

The excommunications were lifted from the SSPX bishops ordained by Lefebvre before his death, correct? Did Lefebvre die an excommunicate?

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 February 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1265836443' post='2054846']
Interesting article.
An official source would be good. Even if it is official, in my personal opinion it's extremely ill-advised.

Unless the rainbow is a homosexual symbol exclusively in North America, I suppose...
[/quote]

Bingo. It doesn't mean the same thing in Europe. The rainbow flags there say "peace" on them (well, pace, etc).

The obvious reason to use rainbow is to put all the liturgical colors in one place so it's multi-purpose. I don't think they did that here.


Pope John Paul II was occasionally treated this poorly; it's in bad taste to treat a bishop this way, regardless of what you think of his decisions. The time to air views was not during the mass....

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='10 February 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1265859548' post='2055074']
I've never heard that members of the SSPX resent being called Lefebvrites. Do they dislike their founder? As the SSPX currently has no canonical status it is not clear to me that there are any guidelines stating how we are to refer to them. As they reject all dialogue and compromise, it's a moot point. Trumpeting Vatican I at every opportunity is also not conducive to dialogue with the Orthodox, or anyone else. It is not the approach the Church has taken since Vatican II.


S.
[/quote]

The term lefebvrite is offensive. I believe they prefer being called Catholics. If you must call them "Catholics in an irregular canonical situation", which is far closer to the truth than implying they're members of a new religion built around Archbishop Lefebvre.