Angry Parish Erupts At Bishop

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 February 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1265949309' post='2055668']
His Eminence, Cardinal Mahony, was appointed by the Holy Father, as well, and you are never lacking in criticism of him.
[/quote]
So you are saying that Benedict is unaware of what Cardinal Kasper is saying and doing as head of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Interesting, because that seems to imply that the Pope is not able to control those who head his own curial departments. After all we are not talking about one bishop among some nearly 5,000 Catholic bishops worldwide, but instead we are talking about the head of one of perhaps 30 curial offices all in Rome itself.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

I find it interesting that there seems to be a disconnect between what Cardinal Kasper, the head of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, is saying about the purpose and goals of ecumenism, and what a teenager in the United States is saying about ecumenism.

[Apotheoun]

I find it odd that I got a negative point for stating the obvious.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Resurrexi: "The purpose of true ecumenism is the conversion of non-Catholics."

Cardinal Kasper: "The aim of ecumenical work is the full communion and the fullness of unity, which cannot be a unitary Church, but a unity in diversity. The way to it is therefore not the return of the others into the fold of the Catholic Church, nor the conversion of individuals to the Catholic Church (even if this must obviously be mutually acknowledged when it is based on reasons of conscience)."

Finally, when speaking about conversion Cardinal Kasper, who was appointed to his office by Pope Benedict himself, says that all involved, i.e., both Catholics and non-Catholics, must experience renewal, purification, and conversion. Here is how he put it: "The Constitution on the Church and the Decree on Ecumenism state expressly that the Church is a pilgrim Church, an ecclesia 'semper purificanda', which must constantly take the way of penance and renewal. Thus, the ecumenical dialogue fulfills the task of an examination of conscience. Ecumenism is not possible without conversion and renewal.

The Catholic Church too is wounded by the divisions of Christianity. Her wounds include the impossibility of concretely realizing fully her own Catholicity in the situation of division. Several aspects of being Church are better realized in the other Churches. Therefore, ecumenism is no one-way street, but a reciprocal learning process, or – as stated in the ecumenical Encyclical 'Ut unum sint' – an exchange of gifts."

[Nihil Obstat]

Apotheoun, in your personal theological opinion, would the ideal Church be one in which, say, Methodists and Pentecostals and Baptists, as well as Orthodox and Catholics are all in full communion corporately, as a set of sui iuris Churches?

Edited February 12, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 February 2010 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1265958428' post='2055734']
Apotheoun, in your personal theological opinion, would the ideal Church be one in which, say, Methodists and Pentecostals and Baptists, as well as Orthodox and Catholics are all in full communion corporately, as a set of sui iuris Churches?
[/quote]
My personal theological opinion is irrelevant. That said, Cardinal Kasper - the man appointed to head the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity by Pope Benedict himself - has said that Catholics and non-Catholic alike must experience conversion in the process of ecumenism and that it is not the goal of the Catholic Church to destroy the non-Catholic Churches and communities.

[Apotheoun]

My point in the present exchange is merely to highlight the different approach taken by Pope Benedict through the man he has personally appointed to lead the dialogue with non-Catholic Churches, and Resurrexi's triumphalist viewpoint.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='12 February 2010 - 01:12 AM' timestamp='1265958727' post='2055737']
My personal theological opinion is irrelevant. That said, Cardinal Kasper - the man appointed to head the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity by Pope Benedict himself - has said that Catholics and non-Catholic alike must experience conversion in the process of ecumenism and that it is not the goal of the Catholic Church to destroy the non-Catholic Churches and communities.
[/quote]
Not saying it's relevant to the debate here. I'm just personally interested in knowing what it is.

I consider myself extremely far from knowledgeable in the area of ecumenism.

[Apotheoun]

One other point, it is clear that Cardinal Kasper speaks with Pope Benedict about these issues, since the heads of all the curial departments serve at the good pleasure of the Pope. I am sure that Pope Benedict would remove Cardinal Kasper from his position as head of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity if he truly disagreed with the approach taken by the good Cardinal in the process of ecumenical dialogue.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 February 2010 - 12:14 AM' timestamp='1265958868' post='2055739']
Not saying it's relevant to the debate here. I'm just personally interested in knowing what it is.

I consider myself extremely far from knowledgeable in the area of ecumenism.
[/quote]
My personal approach would be to distinguish between the Reformation communities, which historically speaking were a part of the Latin Patriarchate, and the ancient Apostolic Churches of the East; but alas Pope Benedict has not asked for my advice.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[i]The following is an excerpt from an interview with Cardinal Kasper:[/i]



[b]OSV:[/b] The Russian Orthodox does not accept that the Roman Catholic Church, the Latin rite Church can evangelize in Russia.

[b]Cardinal Kasper:[/b] This problem is linked with the Russian Orthodox understanding of their canonical territory. The Catholic Church recognizes that Russia has a longstanding Christian tradition and culture. We recognize all the sacraments, the episcopate and the priesthood of the Russian Orthodox Church. Thus, while Catholic Christians living in Russia may clearly give witness of their Catholic faith, there cannot be an evangelization as such, as this can only be undertaken in a pagan context. [i][b]Therefore, it is not our policy or strategy to convert the Orthodox to the Catholic Church.[/b][/i] There may be some priests who do something imprudent -- you can never exclude such a thing -- but this is not the Catholic Church's policy. We do not undertake missionary work in Russia as we do in the pagan regions of the world. We want to collaborate with the Russian Orthodox in missionary work and in evangelization, which is needed in modern Russia after more then 70 years of atheistic propaganda and education.

If one member of the Orthodox faithful, by reason of his or her conscience, wants to become Catholic, we cannot shut the door to that person. There are also Catholics who become Orthodox. This is a question of religious freedom, and we have to recognize and to respect it from both sides.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Apotheoun

[KnightofChrist]

With due respect to Cardinal Kasper, he does not trump our Lord and His command to convert those outside the Church. The Orthodox are as sad as it is outside the Church because they are Schismatics.

[Apotheoun]

[b]Common Declaration of Pope John Paul II and Ecumenical Patriarch Dimitrios I of Constantinople[/b]

The Vatican, December 7, 1987

We, Pope John Paul II and the Ecumenical Patriarch Dimitrios I, give thanks to God who has granted us to meet in order to pray together with the faithful of the Church of Rome, venerable by the memory of the principal Apostles Peter and Paul, and to converse with one another concerning the life of Christ’s Church and its mission in the world.

Our meeting is a sign of the fraternal spirit which exists between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. This brotherly spirit which has been manifested on numerous occasions and in diverse ways, does not cease to grow and to bear fruit for the glory of God. We experience again the joy of being together as brothers (cf. Psalm 133). As we give thanks “to the Father of lights from whom every perfect gift comes” (cf. James 1: 17), we pray and we invite all the faithful of the Catholic Church and of the Orthodox Church to intercede with us before God: may he bring to perfection the work which he has begun among us! In making our own St Paul’s words, we exhort them: “Make my joy complete by living in full harmony” (Phil 2:2). May the heart of all be constantly disposed to receiving unity as a gift which the Lord makes to his Church!

We express our joy and satisfaction in taking note of the first results and the positive evolution of the theological dialogue announced at the time of our meeting at the Phanar on 30 November 1979. The documents accepted by the mixed commission constitute important points of reference for the continuation of the dialogue. Indeed, they seek to express what the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church can already profess together as their common faith regarding the mystery of the Church and the bond between faith and sacraments. Since each of our Churches has received and celebrates the same sacraments, they perceive better that, when unity in faith is assured, a certain diversity of expressions, often complementary, and of proper usages does not create an obstacle but enriches the life of the Church and the understanding, always imperfect, of the mystery revealed (cf. 1 Cor 13:12).

In view of these first results of the effort undertaken in common, in “the obedience of faith” (Rom 1:5), to re-establish full communion between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, we thank and encourage the members of the mixed commission for theological dialogue. We desire that the faithful be informed of this in order that they may give thanks to God, may join in prayer to the Lord “that all may be one” (Jn 17.21), may remain vigilant in intercession and may grow together in faith and hope. We desire as well that advances of the dialogue may bring Catholics and Orthodox to grow in better mutual understanding and in greater charity. By preaching, catechesis and theological formation oriented in this direction, the dialogue will bear all its fruits in the People of God.

We beseech the Spirit of the Lord, who at Pentecost manifest unity in the diversity of tongues, to “lead us to the whole, truth” (cf. John 16:13) and to ensure that solutions will be found to the difficulties which still hinder the full communion which will be made manifest in the Eucharistic celebration.

Our meeting takes place in this year of the twelfth centennial of the Second Council of Nicaea prepared by a long collaboration without rift between the Church of Rome and the Church of Constantinople, which caused the Orthodox faith to triumph. The Churches of East and West, through the centuries, have celebrated together the ecumenical councils which have proclaimed and defended “the faith handed on to the saints once and for all” (Jude 3). “Called to one single hope” (Eph 4:4), we await the day willed by God when refound unity will be celebrated and when full communion will be established by a concelebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.

We renew before God our common commitment to promote the dialogue of charity in every possible manner, following the example of Christ in nourishing his Church and surrounding it with the solicitude of his charity (cf. Eph 5:29). In this spirit, we reject every form of proselytism, every attitude which would or could be perceived as a lack of respect.

This creative charity leads us to collaborate for justice and peace both on the global as well as on the regional and local level. It urges us not to limit this collaboration but to open it out beyond Christians to those who, in other religions, search for God, his justice and his peace. It makes us ready to work together for the welfare of humanity with all people of good will. Indeed, the Church’s mission towards the world which Christ comes to save implies the defense of human dignity wherever it is directly or indirectly called into question in a multitude of ways: among others, by the misery which hinders a decent life; by everything which impedes the life of couples and of families, the basis of the whole of society; by the limitation of the freedom of individuals and communities to live and profess their faith and develop according to their own culture; by the use of and traffic in human beings, youths in particular, in order to gratify the lust of others or to make them slaves to drug addition; by a pursuit of pleasure beyond moral limits; by the fear which generates the existence of means which gravely damage the integrity of creation; by racist ideologies denying the fundamental equality of all before God, ideologies particularly inadmissible for Christians who must reveal to the world the face of Christ the Savior and thus aid it to overcome its contradictions, its tensions and its anguish because they believe that God so loved the world that he gave his own Son in order that all might be saved by him (cf. John 3:16-17) and become in him one single body where they are members one of another (cf. Rom 12:5).

In these moments full of joy when we experience a profound spiritual communion which we wish to share with the pastors and faithful both of the East and the West, we raise our hearts to him who is the Head, Christ. It is from him that the whole body acts in harmony and agreement thanks to the structures which serve it according to an activity divided in the capacity of each one. Thus the body realizes its proper growth. Thus it builds itself up in love (cf. Eph 4:16).

May all glory be given to God through Christ in the Holy Spirit!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 February 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1265960684' post='2055745']
With due respect to Cardinal Kasper, he does not trump our Lord and His command to convert those outside the Church. The Orthodox are as sad as it is outside the Church because they are Schismatics.
[/quote]
Cardinal Kasper serves at to good pleasure of the Pope, and he has not said anything that is contrary to the present position taken by the Papal Magisterium. In fact, he is simply restating what Pope John Paul II has said in various common declarations (like the one above) with Eastern and Oriental Orthodox leaders.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 February 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1265960684' post='2055745']
With due respect to Cardinal Kasper, he does not trump our Lord and His command to convert those outside the Church. The Orthodox are as sad as it is outside the Church because they are Schismatics.
[/quote]
The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches are true particular Churches, and so they are not "outside the Church," but are manifestations of the Church, for "'through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches [i.e., the Orthodox Churches], the Church of God is built up and grows in stature', for in every valid celebration of the Eucharist the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present" (CDF Instruction [i]Communionis Notio[/i], no. 17).