Angry Parish Erupts At Bishop

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 February 2010 - 09:19 AM' timestamp='1265894358' post='2055257']
I don't frequent SSPX chapels, either.

But that's not what I asked you. I asked if you had talked to very many people who go to SSPX Masses. Such conversations can take place at work, school, the grocery store, or even online.

Those who attend SSPXers are not (necessarily) schismatics or heretics, though if you really do avoid schismatics and heretics, I assume you shun all Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Christians, which must be quite difficult for you.



You probably hear no outcry because, as you already stated, you don't talk to anyone associated with the SSPX.



I never said that ecclesiastical authorities trumpet Vatican I in "ecumenical" dialogue; I wouldn't know, since I don't really follow "ecumenical" dialogue very much. What I did say was that the Church still trumpets the divinely revealed dogmas taught at Vatican I. See [i]Lumen Gentium[/i] and the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i].
[/quote]

My reply referred only to avoiding SSPX chapels. No, I don't see them at the grocery store, work, etc. perhaps only because they don't wear identifying insignia. Or more likely, because there are so few of them. I don't shun Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, etc. They should not be shunned. The Lefebvrites were for the most part raised in the Church and have no valid reason to reject its doctrine. My catechism and Lumen Gentium do not really trumpet anything. They do however teach. Vatican II calls the laity to be part of ecumenical dialogue. The condescending way you discuss ecumenism (no need for quotes) is unworthy of a Catholic. " The Sacred Council exhorts all the Catholic faithful to recognize the signs of the times and to take an active and intelligent part in the work of ecumenism."
We are way off topic Rexi, start a separate thread on this if you like.

S.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 February 2010 - 03:38 AM' timestamp='1265873932' post='2055212']
[img]http://webspace.webring.com/people/up/pharsea/clown.jpg[/img]

If only the priest depicted above, who not only celebrates clown Masses, but who also says that adultery and fornication are not always wrong, would be shouted down by the lay faithful.
[/quote]

Oh my goodnesss.

Why, Lord, why? Alas, Your humility and love know no bounds to come to us through Your most unworthy servants.

Makes one say "Thanks be to God for [i]ex opera operato[/i]!"

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 February 2010 - 02:38 AM' timestamp='1265873932' post='2055212']
[img]http://webspace.webring.com/people/up/pharsea/clown.jpg[/img]

If only the priest depicted above, who not only celebrates clown Masses, but who also says that adultery and fornication are not always wrong, would be shouted down by the lay faithful.
[/quote]


That is one of the most seriously disturbed things I have ever seen...and that is saying a lot.

[Nihil Obstat]

Whenever I see that clown Mass image, I really want to jump into the picture and beat up the first guy to the priest's left. He looks like an idiot.

[KeenanParkerII]

Reminds me of a Halloween Mass in California.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHi_VZLtcQ8&mode=related&search=[/media]

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='11 February 2010 - 04:28 AM' timestamp='1265876887' post='2055229']
If I believe a priest has done something improper, I would never shout at him, especially in church. I would take it up privately with him, and if that didn't work, I would take it up with the bishop. If I believe a bishop has done something improper, I would attempt to take it up privately with him, if I could get an appointment with him. If that didn't work, I'd take it up with his superior. It is then in their court to deal with. Army brat who believes in the chain of command. My father once said that even if you don't respect the man, you have to respect the rank. It does us no good to publicly dissent. That just gives our enemies ammunition.
[/quote]

Agree completely, CatherineM! (Fellow army brat here, too.)

Wish I had a +1 to give.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='11 February 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1265908779' post='2055336']
Reminds me of a Halloween Mass in California.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHi_VZLtcQ8&mode=related&search=[/media]
[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='11 February 2010 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1265876887' post='2055229']
It does us no good to publicly dissent.
[/quote]
I completely disagree with this sentiment, and in fact I believe that the silence of the laity in the face of ongoing liturgical abuse is one of the things that perpetuates the unhealthy liturgical atmosphere that prevails in large parts of the Latin Church. If the laity were to vocally make their desire for good liturgy known perhaps much of the nonsense afflicting the Church's life of worship would end.

As St. Thomas More is held to have said in connection with the Act of Supremacy: "Silence denotes consent." Hopefully the lay faithful will take it upon themselves to break their silence and defend orthodoxy . . . as they have done at other times in the Church's history.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 February 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1265911321' post='2055353']
I completely disagree with this sentiment, and in fact I believe that the silence of the laity in defense of orthodoxy is one of the things that perpetuates the unhealthy liturgical atmosphere that prevails in large parts of the Latin Church. If the laity were to vocally make their desire for good liturgy known perhaps much of the nonsense afflicting the Church's life of worship would end.

As St. Thomas More is held to have said in connection with the Act of Supremacy: "Silence denotes consent." Hopefully the lay faithful will take it upon themselves to break their silence and defend orthodoxy . . . as they have done at other times in the Church's history.
[/quote]

Amen Apotheoun! Sound wisdom as always! If angry parishioners band together who knows what might be accomplished. It can be seen as part of our job to renew the Church.

S.

[Brother Adam]

i have mixed feelings. First, i didn't understand a thing that was going on in those videos since none of it is English. I would like to know what was actually being said. Also, I don't believe Mass is the place to voice opposition or concern. I believe that the congregation should have called a meeting with the bishop outside of Mass and before the new installation and talked to him then. I don't know if they have the luxury of leaving the church and going somewhere else, but that could have been the next step. If there are no laity then the church will close.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='11 February 2010 - 11:46 AM' timestamp='1265913962' post='2055374']
i have mixed feelings. First, i didn't understand a thing that was going on in those videos since none of it is English. I would like to know what was actually being said.
[/quote]
You can turn on the subtitles by pressing the button with the triangle on the far right of the video box.

[HisChildForever]

Clowns, Halloween costumes...disgusting.

[MithLuin]

But fairly irrelevant to the Church in France.

I understand that such an incident brings in other, less than stellar, events that have occurred at liturgies in other places.

But such pictures are posted in many different threads here, seemingly simply to sicken people. I will not object to the posting of rainbow vestments, since it's relevant, but clowns? Please leave them out of this.

I appreciate [b]Apo[/b]'s comments, because he explains how similar circumstances occurred in a parish he was once a member of. Totally relevant (and heartbreaking ). I brought up [url=http://books.google.com/books?id=-mzOGzb2T2UC&pg=RA1-PA534&lpg=RA1-PA534&dq=pope+john+paul+ii+burning+tires&source=bl&ots=1KLE35GIWR&sig=_9McAm4HtMHCstA_ralU1L1x3OE&hl=en&ei=wVR0S7XkC4fIsAPRt5mNBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false]the canonization mass of St. Teresa of the Andes[/url], in which the crowd burned tires during a papal mass. [b]Catherine[/b] bringing up the incident in Australia also has a helpful contrast, because it brought out what would be a [i]valid[/i] reason to shout down a bishop in the middle of mass - blatant heresy. Not wearing weird garments, not removing a beloved priest, not being unpopular - being a heretic.

In all other cases, the proper forum in which to lodge complaints and disagreements is certainly...elsewhere. Should you be at a clown mass, walking out is probably best. IF the bishop refuses to meet with or communicate with the parishoners, such disruptive behavior as is seen in this video is...nigh inevitable.


And as for the history of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_flag]rainbow flags[/url], the Italian peace movement claimed the symbol in 1961, well before the gay pride movement in San Francisco in 1978. And rather than surrender the symbol and choose another one, they kept it, prominently displaying rainbow flags all over Europe in 2002 to protest the war in Iraq (though most predominantly in Italy, of course). There were people handing out rainbow flags with the word "peace" or "pace" in a variety of languages at World Youth Day in Germany. It had nothing to do with gay pride. I'm not surprised that Americans are unaware of this tradition, but I would be very surprised if Europeans associated rainbow flags [i]solely[/i] with gay pride, just as Indians would be surprised to learn that it means something other than a tribute to Meher Baba.

That doesn't mean that colorful stripes belong on vestments. Nor does it mean the bishop is justified in his actions. But I felt Americans were reacting incorrectly to the symbolism. If someone can bring forward some other statement made by the bishop to suggest he sympathizes with the gay pride movement, then, fine, I'll concede.

But all I can find is that Bishop Nourrichard is called a modernist and that he tried to remove a priest. If he's a heretic, I can understand the outrage...but, can we produce the evidence here before [i]we[/i] (who are not members of that parish) condemn him? He met with the papal nuncio and agreed to leave the parish priest in place, so I don't see him being obstinate in this matter.

Edited February 11, 2010 by MithLuin

[dominicansoul]

[IMG]http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh165/hamburgerpatty_2008/respect_300.gif[/IMG]

...part of respecting the Bishop, IS to show him when he is in dreadful error...

...for too long the Catholic Church has been attacked [i]from within [/i]because devout laity have done absolutely nothing against the evils of modernism, liberalism, liturgical abuses, indifferentism and lukewarmness that are traits of the church after Vatican II. In fact, much of the abuse and indifference and apathy should be blamed on us devout Catholics because we have waited much too long to stand up against these evils...

...who was it that said evil prevails because the good do nothing?

...heck, it's like the "smoke of satan" entered the Church and we just keep inhaling over and over even though it makes us sick!!! he's laughing at us, 'cos we let him get his way...

Edited February 11, 2010 by dominicansoul

[let_go_let_God]

It is granted to the hands of the layity to learn their faith to make informed decisions of right and wrong. When an error is found it is their right to bring it forth to the local bishop. Albiet they did not voice their pain and their knowledge of right and wrong in the proper venue I do agree with those that posted the video, it was seen in the eyes of heaven itself.

I was upset by the lack of respect for their bishop. There is a reason that he is in that position and that he is there. Perhaps this is part of it. I do not know.

The layman who did speak up did try to remind the congrigation that they needed to respect the bishop. He is a brave man for doing so as his friends and fellow worshipers basically began to turn into a mob.

The priest fully knows what is happening and it touched me that even though he couldn't be there to minsiter to them personally he would "be the minister of their souls."

They are the Church making a stand, they are the Church showing their longing for rightousness and truth, they are the Living Body of Christ. May we learn charity and hope from their example.

God bless-
LGLG