New Exciting Concordance From Heaven No Less...

[Bruce S]

Revelation, THE PROPHETIC book that ends accepted scripture, AND as you guys say...you WROTE THE BOOK all the time, ends with this statement:

[quote] 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: [b]If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.[/b] 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
  [/quote]

Talk about adding additional revelations from... heaven?

Of such volumous magnitude that a Concordance is now needed to organize them all?

A CONCORDANCE!!??


[url="http://www.medjugorje.org/framconc.htm"]http://www.medjugorje.org/framconc.htm[/url]

Edited April 10, 2004 by Bruce S

[Livin_the_MASS]

I just tried again to do a webreview on it, couldn't find it again, bogus site brotha!

You want to understand the true meaning of Rev. I suggest Scott Hahn book:The Lambs Supper

[Livin_the_MASS]

Plus She doesn't add words to the Book come on!

Sheeh

Edited April 10, 2004 by Jason

[Bruce S]

Jason.

Are you aware that the link is to the OFFICIAL site at Medgujorjie?

OFFICIAL site. Not a bogus site, the SANCTIONED site.

Man, are you bad at discernment.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 10 2004, 06:02 PM'] Jason.

Are you aware that the link is to the OFFICIAL site at Medgujorjie?

OFFICIAL site. Not a bogus site, the SANCTIONED site.

Man, are you bad at discernment. [/quote]
Peters.net can't find it so the site is not honored by them nor by me call it what you will whatever.

The Mother of God is not adding words to Scripture at Medgujorjie she is giving messages to children to give to the world.

Big difference BRO!

[Aloysius]

SANCTIONED by the folks who believe in Medgujorjie, not the Church. Let's remember, with Medgujorjie the Church hasn't even said the MESSAGE is worthy of belief, she has remained silent. To attack, say, the MESSAGE of Fatima (not whether or not it actually happened) is to attack the Church, but to attack the MESSAGE of Medgujorjie is not.

anyway, Jesus Christ is the fullness of revelation. After Him shall come nothing different, nothing new. Yet He said " I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when He comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will lead you into all truth" and so the teaching of the Church is being led into All Truth, by the Spirit of Truth Himself, the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity. And when it comes to apparitions, it is supplementary to the Truth. Nothing new may be revealed from such things, but a message bringing people more deeply to the Truth revealed from the Bible. If the Church approves it, we know that whether or not it actually happened the MESSAGE is worthy of belief.

I do not believe in Medgujorjie, so i don't even know what kind of things may be in there. but i'm gonna say something that might knock you off your chair, bruce, you COULD be right. it's not impossible, because the Spirit has yet to guide us to know what's up with Medgujorjie's message, it could very well be false.

[Bruce S]

[quote]I do not believe in Medgujorjie, so i don't even know what kind of things may be in there. but i'm gonna say something that might knock you off your chair, bruce, you COULD be right. it's not impossible, because the Spirit has yet to guide us to know what's up with Medgujorjie's message, it could very well be false.[/quote]

It is.

That is why the 2nd commandment [the REAL one, not the doctored up one you have] warns about images, for Medgujorie and such is where it ultimately leads.

Floating "Angels of Light" giving NEW commands, very, very, very dangerous.

The Catholic Church may not have made this one official, but come on now, SHE certainly isn't warning folks is she, and all those LEADERS making pilgrimages, that sure makes the less educated BELIEVE it is official.

Hairsplitting again.

We all know WHO "can" be appearing, in fact, scripture pretty much tells us THIS WILL happen, but it isn't Mary that scripture said will be appearing, is it?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Apr 10 2004, 06:14 PM'] SANCTIONED by the folks who believe in Medgujorjie, not the Church.  Let's remember, with Medgujorjie the Church hasn't even said the MESSAGE is worthy of belief, she has remained silent.  To attack, say, the MESSAGE of Fatima (not whether or not it actually happened) is to attack the Church, but to attack the MESSAGE of Medgujorjie is not. 

anyway, Jesus Christ is the fullness of revelation.  After Him shall come nothing different, nothing new.  Yet He said " I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.  But when He comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will lead you into all truth"  and so the teaching of the Church is being led into All Truth, by the Spirit of Truth Himself, the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity.  And when it comes to apparitions, it is supplementary to the Truth.  Nothing new may be revealed from such things, but a message bringing people more deeply to the Truth revealed from the Bible.  If the Church approves it, we know that whether or not it actually happened the MESSAGE is worthy of belief. 

I do not believe in Medgujorjie, so i don't even know what kind of things may be in there.  but i'm gonna say something that might knock you off your chair, bruce, you COULD be right.  it's not impossible, because the Spirit has yet to guide us to know what's up with Medgujorjie's message, it could very well be false. [/quote]
Yes the Church gives you the right to believe or not to believe thats your choice. Test the spirits brother you can tell.

Touchie subject i won't get involved in a C and C discussion about it.

Edited April 10, 2004 by Jason

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 10 2004, 05:21 PM']
It is.

That is why the 2nd commandment [the REAL one, not the doctored up one you have] warns about images, for Medgujorie and such is where it ultimately leads.

Floating "Angels of Light" giving NEW commands, very, very, very dangerous.

The Catholic Church may not have made this one official, but come on now, SHE certainly isn't warning folks is she, and all those LEADERS making pilgrimages, that sure makes the less educated BELIEVE it is official.

Hairsplitting again.

We all know WHO "can" be appearing, in fact, scripture pretty much tells us THIS WILL happen, but it isn't Mary that scripture said will be appearing, is it? [/quote]
no, it's a woman that gives birth to the King of the World; i thought you read revelation

The second half of the FIRST COMMANDMENT, which you are referring to, we are not to have idols, definitely. nothing that takes our attention off of God. but members of our Church are not idols. My parish priest is not an idol to me, by good friends at my parish are not idols to me, nor are any people who are in the Heavenly Church idols to me. To have a picture of my friends at Church, or of my parish priest, is not an idol to me. It reminds me i'm connected to them through the body of Christ. to have an image of my friends in the Church Triumphant in heaven is not an idol to me. And for my friend to talk to me and share with me an insight about God is not an idol to me. For Mary to come to us and share with us an insight we are not seeing so well is not taking anything away from God.


If your pastor teaches you something you had previously not realized, is he bringing you another Gospel?

as long as the message is backed by the constant teaching of the Church (THE GOSPEL THE APOSTLES, ONES WHO ARE SENT, HAVE BROUGHT TO US) then it is not an addition, but rather an insight.. if i am not following Christ's message very well, and my friend let me know, or maybe Mary let me know, they are informing me of something that i already should have known, something that is part of Jesus Christ's message that i had never realized before.

and the Church doesn't warn people, or CONDEMN it, because as of yet she has seen nothing detrimental to the faith either. Currently the Church's position is that she does not yet consider the message worthy of belief, nor does she consider belief in the message detrimental. Maybe one day she will say, this message is good. or maybe one day she will find something within the message and say, this message is not trustworthy, and bad. Currently she has yet to see either way into it. I thought you didn't like it when the Church "claims to know everything"-- here, she is frankly admitting that Her Spouse, Christ, has yet to instruct her as to how to deal with this apparition.
Pax et Amorque Christi, Bruce.

[Bruce S]

Graven Images. That means THINGS, and STATUES

Thou shalt not MAKE... NOR... bow down to...

That is a two part instruction set.

And YES, it includes the pictures Protestants put in books too.

[Aloysius]

oh, I see...

i'm going to go burn all the things that remind me of God, you've convinced me with your out of context seperated portion of the first commandment.



GRAVEN basically means it was engraved, carved. so literally, we can't carve any statues. who wants to be the first to tell NYC we gottta topple the Statue of Liberty?

oh, by the way, someone might wanna tell GOD ALMIGHTY that, cause He commanded the Israelites to make two golden angels to put around the ark, and the ark was intended to be bowed down to in worship of God. I'm sure if we let Him know he'll fix it though

ummm... yeah... is there any other inappropriately sarcastic comment i can use to make my point? sorry, i guess i'm in a mood to make my point with sarcasm tonight. no offense intended. :Christian Hugs:

alrighty, umm... yeah. God has no ban on images that remind us of Him, He has even commanded them.

Pax et Amor

Edited April 10, 2004 by Aloysius

[Bruce S]

You might find this thread interesting, this one played it out from a Protestant VS Protestant understanding ...

Go read, it was really a VERY very well developed thread over it's entire life.

Now WE don't have this need to pitty patt ourselves on the back, so it really does have some depth to it that might be illuminating.

I want you all to notice that I am fairly consistant here, this is a mostly hard core Evangelical site, and I was just as hard hitting there, no, moreso, MUCH moreso than I am here.

here I'm a pussycat...purrr....meow.

[url="http://forums.christianity.com/html/P929309/?sb=post_replies;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread"]http://forums.christianity.com/html/P92930...e=unread#unread[/url]

[luciana]

Hi, BTW, re:the quote from Revelation:"If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in[b]this[/b] book'". If you want to use it against Tradition, it falls apart, because literally it's talking about adding to the book of Revelation. And if you use those words as an argument for Sola sriptura, then you'd actually be saying Sola Torah, because in the Pentateuch, there's a similar punishment for adding to God's word.

[Bruce S]

I actually do agree it applies to REVELATION.

However, that is the ONLY book in the NT that specifically was foretelling.

The Marian apparitions really are VISIONS and that is what John is alluding to, IMHO, more revelations and projections.

I'm perhaps struggling a little here, this concept of being wary of Apparitions AT ALL is so foreign to you all here, to you, in your culture, this is NORMAL, but for others, it is not.

[Brother Adam]

When I was about 5 years old my mom bought me a toy that you sat on. It was like a flat wheet laying on the ground. You grabbed a handle in the middle of the toy and started to spin yourself around in circles until you got dizzy and threw up.

[Theoketos]

I think that I had the same toy

[ironmonk]

Bruce,

Come on man... You shouldn't really use the worn out anti-Catholic 101 attacks, it only makes you look foolish.

Graven images are not a sin. Bowing down infront of an image is not a sin. Bowing down [b]to [/b]and [b]worshiping [/b]graven images is a sin. It's called idolatry.

God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts.

"And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20)

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9). It is when people begin [u][b]to adore a statue as a god [/b][/u]that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as "You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain." (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3) and "You shall not make for yourself a graven image" (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.

To make memorization of the Ten Commandments easier, Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, "Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy," though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as "You shall have no other gods before me." This is no attempt to "hide" the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities" (CCC 2066).

Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form. Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object (e.g., a bull or the sun).

But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in Daniel 7:9: "As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire." Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies.

The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32), and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4). Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars.

But, more important, in the Incarnation of Christ his Son, God showed mankind an icon of himself. Paul said, "He is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Christ is the tangible, divine "icon" of the unseen, infinite God.

We read that when the magi were "going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh" (Matt. 2:11). Though God did not reveal a form for himself on Mount Horeb, he did reveal one in the house in Bethlehem.

The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ. Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or "fish emblem."

Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ, it’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God. That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of them.

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.





Now, if you would go to a Catholic site such as one listed below, and look up the attack you are about to try before posting, it might save you from looking so ignorant the next time. I say this constructivly. You waste everyone's time, including your own by attacking with misunderstands, half truths, and little bible knowledge.

www.Catholic.com
www.ScirptureCatholic.com
www.Catholic-Pages.com

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited April 11, 2004 by ironmonk

[Donna]

[i]What dUSt said![/i] Eek! Done it a-gain![i] I mean Max![/i]

Bruce, Med. is NOT an approved apparition.

And it never will be, just on the sheer volume alone of the 'messages'. No way for thoroughly examining the, what, 1000's or 10's of 1000's, by now.

Edited April 11, 2004 by Donna