Starvation And Theft

[Winchester]

[quote name='Slappo' date='02 March 2010 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1267575443' post='2065602']
I leave my car door unlocked and food in the back seat. I bring what I need in to work with me (usually whatever I'm having for breakfast) and everything else I leave in my car. I don't keep valuables in my car and I bring my laptop with me if I am bringing it somewhere during/after work so I don't have to worry about that being stolen, but if someone takes some/all of my food, then they probably needed it more than me. It's only like 15-20 bucks worth.

I might be irked at first that my food is gone, but on second thought I won't really care. I keep off brand pop tarts and the Kashi granola bars. For all I know someone has taken a single bar to quench their hunger on a cold day and I never even knew it happened!



If I had a nice car or valuables inside I would lock the door... but my car doors don't even lock
[/quote]
That's like me, except instead of food, it's a gun.

And I lock my doors.

[Domine ut Videam]

I'm just wondering if anyone has noticed the clear Les Miserables analogy here.

Jean Valjean steals a loaf of bread to feed his sister's starving children, of whom he is the responsible man for at the young age of 25.

[quote]
In pruning season he earned eighteen sous a day; then he hired out as a hay-maker, as laborer, as neat-herd on a farm, as a drudge. He did whatever he could. His sister worked also but what could she do with seven little children? It was a sad group enveloped in misery, which was being gradually annihilated. A very hard winter came. Jean had no work. The family had no bread. No bread literally. Seven children!

One Sunday evening, Maubert Isabeau, the baker on the Church Square at Faverolles, was preparing to go to bed, when he heard a violent blow on the grated front of his shop. He arrived in time to see an arm passed through a hole made by a blow from a fist, through the grating and the glass. The arm seized a loaf of bread and carried it off. Isabeau ran out in haste; the robber fled at the full speed of his legs. Isabeau ran after him and stopped him. The thief had flung away the loaf, but his arm was still bleeding. It was Jean Valjean.[/quote]

Just thought I'd point out this nice cultural reference. Victor Hugo wrote about some beautiful truths in this book.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Domine ut Videam

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='16 February 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1266384192' post='2058201']
[i][u]This query reminds me of Jean Valjean.[/u][/i] I'm not sure how Thomas Aquinas would handle this, although I like to defer to the Principle of Double Effect for its simple and efficient leveling of moral quagmires. There does exist a point in the process of starvation where the frontal lobe ceases functioning correctly...that is the 'decision-making' and 'ethical evaluating' part of the human brain is essentially defective. The fear of death due to starvation (or the psychological effects of a loved one starving) could be viewed as something which assuages the gravity and culpability of stealing. Perhaps stealing for the immediate necessity of self-preservation (or the preservation of an innocent in immediate danger) is similar to killing an aggressor in self-defense?
[/quote]


[quote name='Domine ut Videam' date='02 March 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1267584336' post='2065668']
I'm just wondering if anyone has noticed the clear Les Miserables analogy here.

Jean Valjean steals a loaf of bread to feed his sister's starving children, of whom he is the responsible man for at the young age of 25.



Just thought I'd point out this nice cultural reference. Victor Hugo wrote about some beautiful truths in this book.
[/quote]




Victor Hugo also criticized rather starkly the Eucharistic piety of the Sisters of the Perpetual Adoration if I remember correctly. At least in his Unabridged version he did. For the record, with a few reservations, I really enjoyed the book...and the play when I saw it in London.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Veridicus

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='03 March 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1267596929' post='2065790']


Victor Hugo also criticized rather starkly the Eucharistic piety of the Sisters of the Perpetual Adoration if I remember correctly. At least in his Unabridged version he did. For the record, with a few reservations, I really enjoyed the book...and the play when I saw it in London.
[/quote]

The play or the musical? I saw the musical in London. Unfortunately I was a bit miffed to be seeing that particular production as I'd seen it a few times in the States already, but it did not disappoint.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 March 2010 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1267600589' post='2065842']
The play or the musical? I saw the musical in London. Unfortunately I was a bit miffed to be seeing that particular production as I'd seen it a few times in the States already, but it did not disappoint.
[/quote]

play=musical. 12:15 is past my bedtime when I have to get up at 6am.

[dairygirl4u2c]

it seems the contra arguments boil down to this verse, for the most part, per anything concrete other than 'it seems sinful to me' etc etc.

1 Peter 2:
"13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well."

it does say it, pretty unequivically- "every ordinance". and, a person is compelled to lay down their life, for God, in certain circumstances. i do like that you've clarfied for me, 'to lay down one's life rather than sin', though, cause that does help clarify when one should lay down one's life, and i see how it could compel one to lay down and die than 'steal'.

but, im not sure these are the circumstances. this reminds me of the times people base so much on so little, expecting something so scant as those couple of sentences above, to lead one into whether they should die or not, countless numbers of people dying. im not sure i could live with that, if there's a chance it's wrong to read so much into that, based on a few sentences. it's easier to say that he's speaking too unequivically, not even that the bible isn't necessarily infallible. it's argubly a matter of speaking, like we all do from time to time, too unequivically when it's something that almost always is true "dont kill" etc etc. for example, it's not like he expounded what happens if the laws cause you to sin (reading those verses might lead on to think that it's allowed... though i dont know of the verses that say you must lay down your life for not violating a law that causes sin. if it's right though, that there is no counter verses explicitly-- then this verse could be said to contradict your idea that we are to die for sin. i suppose common sense might say we are not to sin if the law says to, but, argubly, but still.), or if the laws are deadly-- arguably, he's just talking as a general point, follow the laws even if ya dont like it. eg, no jay walking even when it's clear there's no harm in it, use 'set backs' on your house or follow zoning laws even though they are a burden and infringe one's 'liberty', or something like that. etc etc
for me, it's a matter of which way do the 'deferences' go? especially given the scant verses, and lack of expounding on it.
but you have some compelling points worth reflecting on.

Edited March 3, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

plus how the verses are in the middle of stuff that doesn't have to do specifically with the verses, just sort of an interjection. often called 'dicta' to legalists, cause it hasnt and wasn't intended to be expounded upon, so perhaps can't be taken as completely literal just because it's stated in a litereal sort of way.

[BibleReader]

You are welcome to read the surrounding verses and see where they fall in story, or law, or whatever.

16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
19 For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.
20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

I think the context here provides that any amount of suffering for even the smallest of things is worthwhile in God's eyes. Even to the point of injustice, we are to obey. Verse 17 "Fear God, Honor the king," also seems to reaffirm that God is supreme. I guess your thoughts of watching people die being rather uncomfortable really makes me think of Gandhi. (I think I spelled it right) He, and his followers, were willing to die by performing legal acts against the government. Don't get me wrong, not everything they did was "legal" but many were. They believed in passive resistance and change by doing what was right over what was easy. Many people were battered and killed under his following, just to show what was right (in their eyes).

So many people find this great comfort in dieing for freedom, the idea that you can do as you please, or have a say in what happens. That going on to destroy tyranny and other injustices is justified in the name of freedom. Just think how much more honor is in dieing for the sake of what is right and justified in the mind of God. Even the petty things.

[BibleReader]

DairyGirl...


Are you a girl?...It seems to be a common topic among the threads; the suspense is killing me.