The Extent Of God's Infiniteness

[infinitelord1]

I just read this paragraph on Wikipedia regarding St. Thomas Aquinas' view of the nature of God...

1.God is simple, without composition of parts, such as body and soul, or matter and form.[60]
2.God is perfect, lacking nothing. That is, God is distinguished from other beings on account of God's complete actuality.[61]
3.God is infinite. That is, God is not finite in the ways that created beings are physically, intellectually, and emotionally limited. This infinity is to be distinguished from infinity of size and infinity of number.[62]
4.God is immutable, incapable of change on the levels of God's essence and character.[63]
5.God is one, without diversification within God's self. The unity of God is such that God's essence is the same as God's existence. In Aquinas's words, "in itself the proposition 'God exists' is necessarily true, for in it subject and predicate are the same."[64]

Im not sure if I agree or like what he says in #3 where he says, "This infinity is to be distinguished from infinity of size and infinity of number". I personally have always viewed God as being infinite in size and number. What exactly is Aquinas referring to when he says this? Does anyone know the name of the arguement where Aquinas attempts to prove god's omnipresence?

[Socrates]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='21 February 2010 - 01:39 AM' timestamp='1266734390' post='2060392']
I just read this paragraph on Wikipedia regarding St. Thomas Aquinas' view of the nature of God...

1.God is simple, without composition of parts, such as body and soul, or matter and form.[60]
2.God is perfect, lacking nothing. That is, God is distinguished from other beings on account of God's complete actuality.[61]
3.God is infinite. That is, God is not finite in the ways that created beings are physically, intellectually, and emotionally limited. This infinity is to be distinguished from infinity of size and infinity of number.[62]
4.God is immutable, incapable of change on the levels of God's essence and character.[63]
5.God is one, without diversification within God's self. The unity of God is such that God's essence is the same as God's existence. In Aquinas's words, "in itself the proposition 'God exists' is necessarily true, for in it subject and predicate are the same."[64]

Im not sure if I agree or like what he says in #3 where he says, "This infinity is to be distinguished from infinity of size and infinity of number". I personally have always viewed God as being infinite in size and number. What exactly is Aquinas referring to when he says this? Does anyone know the name of the arguement where Aquinas attempts to prove god's omnipresence?
[/quote]
St. Thomas is basically saying that God (as God) is pure spirit and doesn't have a physical body (except incarnate as Jesus Christ) that takes up space, so technically He has no physical size at all (large or small). This is a different matter than His omnipresence. St. Thomas is just clarifying that when we refer to God being infinite, it doesn't mean He's this huge physical thing that takes up an infinite amount of space.
Since there is only one God, God is not infinite in number; that would mean there's an infinite number of gods, which is not true.

[Ed Normile]

Along those lines God can be infinite in size and number, he is afterall the alpha and the omega. This being the beginning and the end and of allthings and above all things would allow him to be whatever he chooses. I am not attempting to argue with a doctor of the church, but i feel that any man trying to explain God would fall short due to our inability to fathom His depths.

ed

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='21 February 2010 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1266779410' post='2060554']
Along those lines God can be infinite in size and number, he is afterall the alpha and the omega. This being the beginning and the end and of allthings and above all things would allow him to be whatever he chooses. I am not attempting to argue with a doctor of the church, but i feel that any man trying to explain God would fall short due to our inability to fathom His depths.

ed
[/quote]
St. Thomas Aquinas is very precise in his language, and I think has a better grasp on the topic than either "infinitelord" or yourself (or myself, for that matter). If you read more of the Summa, you'd probably see better what he's getting at. He's just saying that the infinity of God doesn't mean in a physical or numerical sense (ie. God has no physical body, and is only one in number.) To say that there is is an infinite number of gods is heresy.

[Apotheoun]

I agree with St. Maximos the confessor who taught that God is beyond the concept of infinity.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='22 February 2010 - 06:10 AM' timestamp='1266779410' post='2060554']
...the alpha and the omega....
ed
[/quote]

Is this metaphorically speaking since there is no beginning or end? I visualised it as meaning that he [i]infinitely[/i] encompasses everything, that is to say there is nothing beyond where beyond does not exist.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Socrates' date='21 February 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1266780753' post='2060564']
St. Thomas Aquinas is very precise in his language, and I think has a better grasp on the topic than either "infinitelord" or yourself (or myself, for that matter). If you read more of the Summa, you'd probably see better what he's getting at. He's just saying that the infinity of God doesn't mean in a physical or numerical sense (ie. God has no physical body, and is only one in number.) To say that there is is an infinite number of gods is heresy.
[/quote]


Yet as catholics we profess our beleif in the Blessed Trinity, God in three persons, one true God.

ed

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='21 February 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1266805621' post='2060824']
Yet as catholics we profess our beleif in the Blessed Trinity, God in three persons, one true God.

ed
[/quote]
Exactly three Persons, yet only one God, not an infinity of persons or infinity of gods.
This is what St. Thomas means when he says God is not infinite in number.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Socrates' date='21 February 2010 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1266806595' post='2060836']
Exactly three Persons, yet only one God, not an infinity of persons or infinity of gods.
This is what St. Thomas means when he says God is not infinite in number.
[/quote]

So how important is it that we pray to Jesus? Afterall, it does say that we must go through him in order to see the kingdom of heaven. Why would it really matter who we pray to (of the members of the trinity) since they are all the same being. Perhaps what Jesus was saying was that you must believe in me (God) in order to go to heaven? “I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME.” — Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
The trinity has always baffled me. Here we have this One and only God who takes 3 different forms, and then says that you have to go through one of his forms to see the others?

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='22 February 2010 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1266815497' post='2060970']
So how important is it that we pray to Jesus? Afterall, it does say that we must go through him in order to see the kingdom of heaven. Why would it really matter who we pray to (of the members of the trinity) since they are all the same being. Perhaps what Jesus was saying was that you must believe in me (God) in order to go to heaven? "I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." — Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
The trinity has always baffled me. Here we have this One and only God who takes 3 different forms, and then says that you have to go through one of his forms to see the others?
[/quote]


The Trinity is meant to baffle us, it is afterall a mystery. God in the Trinity is three distinct beings and one God.

Socrates said "Exactly three Persons, yet only one God, not an infinity of persons or infinity of gods.
This is what St. Thomas means when he says God is not infinite in number." I would ask you why you would assume to limit God? If God willed it he he could be an infinity of persons or Gods, all things are possible with God.

ed

[KnightofChrist]

There is no extent of His Infiniteness. His Infiniteness transcends infinity.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='22 February 2010 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1266816223' post='2060983']
The Trinity is meant to baffle us, it is afterall a mystery. God in the Trinity is three distinct beings and one God.

Socrates said "Exactly three Persons, yet only one God, not an infinity of persons or infinity of gods.
This is what St. Thomas means when he says God is not infinite in number." I would ask you why you would assume to limit God? If God willed it he he could be an infinity of persons or Gods, all things are possible with God.

ed
[/quote]

Well i think you have made a good point...i have heard people say that God cannot sin...dont you think that is putting limitations on God?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='22 February 2010 - 01:57 AM' timestamp='1266821864' post='2061072']
Well i think you have made a good point...i have heard people say that God cannot sin...dont you think that is putting limitations on God?
[/quote]

Sin is a limitation.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='22 February 2010 - 02:04 AM' timestamp='1266822270' post='2061073']
Sin is a limitation.
[/quote]

will you explain yourself please

[KnightofChrist]

Sin is bondage, enslavement and therefore limiting.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='22 February 2010 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1266824020' post='2061076']
Sin is bondage, enslavement and therefore limiting.
[/quote]

ok...thank you.

[infinitelord1]

just testing to see if my new avatar is working

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='22 February 2010 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1266827420' post='2061097']
just testing to see if my new avatar is working
[/quote]

No it's not! You look like an Atlantic salmon. Oh sorry I didn't realise that's how you normally look.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='22 February 2010 - 06:13 AM' timestamp='1266837219' post='2061104']
No it's not! You look like an Atlantic salmon. Oh sorry I didn't realise that's how you normally look.
[/quote]

I was thinking Shiva, but I can kind of see the salmon.

~Sternhauser

[Socrates]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='22 February 2010 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1266815497' post='2060970']
So how important is it that we pray to Jesus? Afterall, it does say that we must go through him in order to see the kingdom of heaven. Why would it really matter who we pray to (of the members of the trinity) since they are all the same being. Perhaps what Jesus was saying was that you must believe in me (God) in order to go to heaven? “I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME.” — Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
The trinity has always baffled me. Here we have this One and only God who takes 3 different forms, and then says that you have to go through one of his forms to see the others?
[/quote]
I think that passage from John illustrates how important it is that we pray to Jesus.
However, the three Persons of the Most Holy Trinity are NOT just three different "forms" God takes, but are three actual persons, each distinct from the other, but all the same God. The exact nature of God is a mystery because it is beyond the power of out limited human intellect to comprehend. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:[quote]The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 [b]The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."[/b]88 The divine Unity is Triune. [/quote]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='22 February 2010 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1266816223' post='2060983']
The Trinity is meant to baffle us, it is afterall a mystery. God in the Trinity is three distinct beings and one God.

Socrates said "Exactly three Persons, yet only one God, not an infinity of persons or infinity of gods.
This is what St. Thomas means when he says God is not infinite in number." I would ask you why you would assume to limit God? If God willed it he he could be an infinity of persons or Gods, all things are possible with God.

ed
[/quote]
The Holy Trinity is eternal in nature. The Son is the eternally-begotten Word of God, and the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son. The Trinity describes the eternal unchanging, unchangable nature of God. God did not arbitrarily decide to be three Persons; he could not just as easily be four or five or 5000. Neither could He be more than one God.
God's inner nature is eternal and immutable (unchangable). God is only "limited" in so far as He cannot contradict His own nature. It's like asking whether God could create a rock so heavy He couldn't lift it, or whether He could create a square triangle, or choose to be evil.

I strongly recommend both of you start by reading the [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm"]Catechism on the Holy Trinity[/url]. Read the entire page carefully. Then you might want to read what St. Thomas Aquinas actually has to say about the nature of God and the Holy Trinity: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1.htm