The Jihad Against The Jihadis

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1267043225' post='2062537']Please stop confusing the failures of Christians with the doctrine of Christianity . . . the former are clearly fallible imperfect beings, while the latter is a teaching that comes directly from God incarnate and is as pure as the driven snow.
[/quote]
I have not said anything about the doctrine of Christianity. The Gospel is the only thing that can save the world. And that is precisely why Christians scare me more than Muslims. At least Muslims don't claim to be following the Gospel. Christians do claim to be following the Gospel, and then Christians go on to destroy peoples and wage wars and enslave and colonize in the name of so-called "Christian" civilization. Christians pervert the only thing that can save the world (i.e., they pervert the Gospel), which is what makes Christians so scary.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1267043558' post='2062542']
Are you serious? Read the history of the colonization of the Americas.

It wasn't Muslims who enslaved Africans in the United States.
[/quote]
Era,

Did Christ tell His followers to colonize any region on earth? I do not think so. Did Christ tell His followers to treat some human beings as less than human? Nope.

By the way, Muslims participated in the slave trade, and there were slaves in the Islamic world prior to the colonization of the Americas by the Europeans.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:34 PM' timestamp='1267043699' post='2062545']
I have not said anything about the doctrine of Christianity. The Gospel is the only thing that can save the world. Which is precisely why Christians scare me more than Muslims. At least Muslims don't claim to be following the Gospel. Christians do claim to be following the Gospel, and then they destroy peoples and wage wars and enslave and colonize in the name of so-called "Christian" civilization.
[/quote]
I know Era. You ignore what I am saying, which involves making a distinction between the imperfect men who are the disciples of Christ and the perfect doctrine which Christ taught.

Always remember, the Church is sinless, but her members are sinners in constant need of reform. Pope John Paul II made that clear several years ago when he apologized for the evil actions of Christians throughout history, but you will note that Pope John Paul II never said that the Church was evil. She - of course - is the spotless bride of Christ, who cannot sin, for she is His body, while in her members she must always be open to purification and reformation. (Edit: [i]Era, as a Catholic you should know about this theological doctrine[/i]).

I simply refuse to dumb things down by not distinguishing between Christ's teaching and the failures of His followers to keep His teaching.

On the other hand, when a Muslim violently saws off the head of a Christian who refuses to apostatize from his faith in Christ, he (i.e., the Muslim) is following the teaching and practice of Mohammed.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1267043714' post='2062546']
Era,

Did Christ tell His followers to colonize any region on earth? I do not think so. Did Christ tell His followers to treat some human beings as less than human? Nope.

By the way, Muslims participated in the slave trade, and there were slaves in the Islamic world prior to the colonization of the Americas by the Europeans.
[/quote]
No, Christ did not tell his followers to colonize anyone. Which makes it so curious that a civilization that prided itself on being Christian could so egregiously act contrary to Christ's teaching.

You illustrate my point when you say that Muslims participated in the slave trade. Christians are supposed to be the light of the world. Yet historically, they are indistinguishable from Muslims. And yet I'm supposed to be afraid of Muslims?

If you get rid of Muslim violence, you will not suddenly find peace, because (as history shows) Christians are all too willing to commit violence in the name of Christ.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1267044131' post='2062549']
No, Christ did not tell his followers to colonize anyone. Which makes it so curious that a civilization that prided itself on being Christian could so egregiously act contrary to Christ's teaching.

You illustrate my point when you say that Muslims participated in the slave trade. Christians are supposed to be the light of the world. Yet historically, they are indistinguishable from Muslims. And yet I'm supposed to be afraid of Muslims?[/quote]
I haven't illustrated any of your points, because your points have almost nothing to do with what I am saying.

Here is the difference that you evidently cannot grasp:

[size="4"]Christians have been violent and in acting that way they have betrayed Christ.

Muslims have been violent and in acting that way they have been faithful to Mohammed.[/size]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1267044131' post='2062549']
If you get rid of Muslim violence, you will not suddenly find peace, because (as history shows) Christians are all too willing to commit violence in the name of Christ.[/quote]
Era, there will not be perfect peace until the eschaton, and you should know that, but a world in which Muslims renounced the violence advocated by Mohammed would be a far more peaceful place than the world is today.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1267043921' post='2062548']I simply refuse to dumb things down by not distinguishing between Christ's teaching and the failures of His followers to keep His teaching.[/quote]
I agree with that distinction. Which is why I am so scared of Christians, because historically they have so egregiously contrary to Christ's teaching, and yet they consider "Christian civilization" as some kind of glorious past which they contrast with Muslim civilization. Historically, I can't tell much of a difference between Christian and Muslim civilization. That is why I refuse to buy into this hysteria over a Muslim bogeyman. "Christian civilization" scares me enough.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1267044522' post='2062552']
I agree with that distinction. Which is why I am so scared of Christians, because historically they have so egregiously contrary to Christ's teaching, and yet they consider "Christian civilization" as some kind of glorious past which they contrast with Muslim civilization. Historically, I can't tell much of a difference between Christian and Muslim civilization. That is why I refuse to buy into this hysteria over a Muslim bogeyman. "Christian civilization" scares me enough.
[/quote]
Era,

For a quietist you certainly do worry a lot.

God bless.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1267044401' post='2062550']Era, there will not be perfect peace until the eschaton, and you should know that, but a world in which Muslims renounced the violence advocated by Mohammed would be a far more peaceful place than the world is today.
[/quote]
I agree that the world would be much more peaceful if Muslims renounced violence in the name of Mohammed.

And the world would also be a lot more peaceful if Christians renounced violence done in the name of Christ.

Violence by Christians worries me more than violence by Muslims. The violent Muslims at least don't claim to be my friend, and they don't claim to be representing the Son of God.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1267044522' post='2062552']
Historically, I can't tell much of a difference between Christian and Muslim civilization. That is why I refuse to buy into this hysteria over a Muslim bogeyman. "Christian civilization" scares me enough.
[/quote]
I do not care about a "Muslim bogeyman"; instead, I am concerned about the openly heretical nature of Islam, and that it has kept millions (billions) of people away from salvation in Christ.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1267044639' post='2062553']
Era,

For a quietist you certainly do worry a lot.

God bless.
[/quote]
The perversion of the Gospel is a worryful thing. In some sense, it is the only thing worth worrying about.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1267044668' post='2062554']
I agree that the world would be much more peaceful if Muslims renounced violence in the name of Mohammed.

And the world would also be a lot more peaceful if Christians renounced violence done in the name of Christ.

Violence by Christians worries me more than violence by Muslims. The violent Muslims at least don't claim to be my friend, and they don't claim to be representing the Son of God.
[/quote]
Which is why you are not a good quietist.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1267044803' post='2062558']
Which is why you are not a good quietist.
[/quote]
Well, you'll have to find another box to put me in I guess.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1267044788' post='2062557']
The perversion of the Gospel is a worriful thing. In some sense, it is the only thing worth worrying about.
[/quote]
Which is why I say the things I do about Islam, which openly distorts and rejects the Gospel, by rejecting the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity.

May God bring that vile religion to a peaceful end the conversion of Muslims to Christ.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1267044888' post='2062560']
Well, you'll have to find another box to put me in I guess.
[/quote]
Nah. You are a quietist, you are just a weird one.

[dominicansoul]

...but in Christianity, there is a backlash against the violence done by other "Christians." We can chastise our violent bretheren, and stand up against them, repudiate their faults because there is no sound Christian principle in which they act out the violence...

but in Islam there is no such thing...sometimes you are a better muslim for the violence against the infidels...

When Christians sin and kill and do all kinds of violent acts against others they will have Hell to pay...when muslims do it...they have virgins waiting for them on the other side...

i don't fear any man, but if you ask me, the acts of terror propagated by Islam is in fact, the more terrifying, because they have no conscience telling them what they are doing is wrong...nor do they feel they face any consequences of their actions, but rather a prize...

...but you go ahead and keep fearing the so-called "Christians" who commit terrorism in the world...(whoever they are and wherever they may be...)

Edited February 24, 2010 by dominicansoul

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 03:32 PM' timestamp='1267043558' post='2062542']
Are you serious? Read the history of the colonization of the Americas.

It wasn't Muslims who enslaved Africans in the United States.
[/quote]


Yup I am serious I have read plenty about the colonization of america, I never seen any reference to where this was Christs will to colonize the states. I did read where they escaped religious persecution in their homelands by moving here, especially the shakers and the quakers. Actually in many cases muslims trafficked the slaves, which they bought in the majority of the cases from their african tribal leaders, as these people were accustomed to selling their own as well as other tribe members they captured as slaves, and then sold them to trading houses which then sold them to colonists who were both christian as well as agnostics, atheists, those who had no beleif at all and even satanists.

Slavery did not begin in America either its been around much longer than Catholicism too. Look up the Code of Hammurabi ca. 1760 BC, yup thats 1760 BC.
In modern times in the Sudan , namely in Mauritania, a muslim people, an estimated 600,000 people are slaves, these are men, women and children almost 20% of the population there are used as bonded labor, they voted to outlaw any future slavery in August of 2007.

ed

Oh by the way when I went to click on the reply here I accidently gave you a plus 1 for your post, no harm no foul my friend!.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Ed Normile

[Era Might]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='24 February 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1267045178' post='2062564']
...but in Christianity, there is a backlash against the violence done by other "Christians." We can chastise our violent bretheren, and stand up against them, repudiate their faults because there is no sound Christian principle in which they act out the violence...

but in Islam there is no such thing...sometimes you are a better muslim for the violence against the infidels...

When Christians sin and kill and do all kinds of violent acts against others they will have Hell to pay...when muslims do it...they have virgins waiting for them on the other side...

i don't fear any man, but if you ask me, the acts of terror propagated by Islam is in fact, the more terrifying, because they have no conscience telling them what they are doing is wrong...nor do they feel they face any consequences of their actions, but rather a prize...

...but you go ahead and keep fearing the so-called "Christians" who commit terrorism in the world...(whoever they are and wherever they may be...)
[/quote]
In modern times, Christians have been influenced by secular trends toward "human rights" and what not. But during the height of "Christian civilization," where was the "brotherly chastisement" over people being burned at the stake, Jews being persecuted, Muslims being killed in the name of Christ?

Lynching used to be an acceptable practice among many American Christians. Where did such barbarism come from? And did it suddenly disappear? It was not Christianity that changed the barbarism of the West. It was secular "Enlightenment" (and I put that in quotation marks, because my point is not about whether or not the so-called "Enlightenment" was actually enlightened). Before the West was secularized, Christians could be just as barbaric as Muslims. But now that Christians live in a secularized society, they are shocked at the barbarism in non-secularized Muslim countries, as though such barbarism were uniquely Muslim.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1267042110' post='2062516']
How useful it is. Christians can destroy peoples, wage war against them, colonize them for centuries, and then dismiss it all simply by admitting that they weren't acting according to Christ's teaching.
[/quote]

It's not wrong to wage a just war.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 04:09 PM' timestamp='1267045760' post='2062575']
In modern times, yes, Christians have been influenced by secular trends toward "human rights" and what not. But during the height of "Christian civilization," where was the "brotherly chastisement" over people being burned at the stake, Jews being persecuted, Muslims being killed in the name of Christ?

Lynching used to be an acceptable practice among many American Christians. Where did such barbarism come from? And did it suddenly disappear? It was not Christianity that changed the barbarism of the West. It was secular "Enlightenment." Before the West was secularized, Christians could be just as barbaric as Muslims. But now that Christians live in a secularized society, they are shocked at the barbarism in non-secularized Muslim countries, as though such barbarism was uniquely Muslim.
[/quote]

I'd like to use Catherine's point from a previous thread in regards to the actions of Christians in the past:

[quote name='CatherineM' date='22 February 2010 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1266873679' post='2061326']
I never think that it is wise to try to judge the morality of a justice system so far removed from out time, place and culture. We no longer hang people who steal horses. When we did it was because if you stole a man's horse, you were potentially sentencing him to death. We no longer execute people who committed crimes while insane. We understand mental illnesses better. We no longer burn heretics at the stake. We no longer banish those with leprosy. That was done in a time and place when their danger to society is different than it is today. When the codes in the Old Testament were written the culture was so different, it might as well have been on a different planet. Life ended much easier, peoples' values were different. I can just imagine how people will look at our moral codes in 100 or 1000 years from now.
[/quote]

...and I don't think you should give "Englightenment" all the credit, Jesus was after all, Our Savior back then too...I'm sure He influenced a great many peoples...and not everything about Christians from the past life is found in your history books...

Heck, I'm in a college history class, and you should see how slanted everything from the past is presented...we Catholic Christians were the Big Bad Wolf...

[Era Might]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='24 February 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1267046259' post='2062579']
I'd like to use Catherine's point from a previous thread in regards to the actions of Christians in the past:



...and I don't think you should give "Englightenment" all the credit, Jesus was after all, Our Savior back then too...I'm sure He influenced a great many peoples...and not everything about Christians from the past life is found in your history books...

Heck, I'm in a college history class, and you should see how slanted everything from the past is presented...we Catholic Christians were the Big Bad Wolf...
[/quote]
I do not consider "Christian civilization" something to be proud of. And not because I am anti-Christ. Just the opposite. I consider "Christian civilization" such a shame precisely because I believe that the Gospel is so pure, and Christians have done everything they could to blacken it. Our Lord asks in the Gospel: "...when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?" (Luke 18:8). It sure is hard to believe in Christ given the shameful history of Christians.